ANSI standards are irrelevant today. They are old and not ISO standard. that is why I said old meters usng old standards which used different units are really not covered and if you have an old meter then you need to work that out for yourself. i.e. I'm not doing backwards compatibility. Look to the future.Rob, I have original copies of the ANSI light meter standard (I think early 70s, but I'm not planning to dig it up), and I don't find anything in the standard to directly connect a reflective meter reading to an average scene reflection. (I once went through it carefully in an attempt to do so.) It looks to me like you are trying to do so with the 'K' constant, however it's not really related. In fact, it only seems close because of the units used (if different light units are used, the 'K' value is much different).
As I recall, the only way I saw to correlate to scene reflectance was indirectly - to compare the constants, 'K' (for reflective meter) to 'C' (for incident meter), when the units are the same. (Don't trust my memory on this, though, double check that the formulas support this.) But there is some vagueness in this as the manufacturer may vary either of those constants slightly for various reasons.
I think you need to find a different way to argue the case.
ANSI standards are irrelevant today. They are old and not ISO standard. that is why I said old meters usng old standards which used different units are really not covered and if you have an old meter then you need to work that out for yourself. i.e. I'm not doing backwards compatibility. Look to the future.
. . .
The problem is people have got old standards so ingrained in their minds and don't want to see what is happening today and try and relate everything back to old standards. It won't work or at least is pointless unless yo are using old kit but that isn't what I was writing about.
so they are not linear and don't equate to the exponential photographic scale either.
When did Munsell publish his scale and who was the author of the Book of Colour?
Thanks, I'm collecting comments and will address them in a few days.
If there is IS a relationship between the reflectivity of the scene and the 'K' value as used in the metering standard, you ought to be able to find it in your copy of the standard and explain it concisely.
I'm still waiting for someone to show me my failed reasoning of what a reflection meter actually does. The formula is not mine, the numbers are not mine. The maths says the meter is calbrated to 8% of reading being in middle of curve. I'm not interested in being told the standards don't say that when the metering formula and very simple maths shows it is.
I'm not looking at standards. I'm making a reasoned attempt to explain the Kodak 18% Grey card and how it relates to photographic exposure (or not) as well as explaining the basics of light metering related to it. But you can't do that without talking about exposure ranges and how light meters actually work.
And just an FYI on Munsell values:
The Optical Society of America's chair for The Committee of Colorimetry was Loyd Jones.View attachment 152289
But you can't do that without talking about exposure ranges and how light meters actually work.
I'm not looking at standards. I'm making a reasoned attempt to explain the Kodak 18% Grey card and how it relates to photographic exposure (or not) as well as explaining the basics of light metering related to it.
Yes my card differs quite a bit from a friend's. Mine tends to agree with 2 incident meters that I use so my trust level is better because of the nature of my gear (mostly by coincidence)! I believe mine was the back side of a reflector panel as an accessory for a 283 Vivitar flash from the late 1970's and was described as an 18% card. It is quite matte in surface finish but it's still sensitive to light angles.And there is no guarantee the gray card you are using has the specific reflectance value it claims. The quality control on these things can be awful.
The gray card does not necessarily define a specific zone in the scene.
interesting stuff but it is my understanding that the 18% reflection value is based on a Kodakfield study,conducted by Condit in the 1940s,where he took readings of over 100 scenes around Rochester,determining an 18% reflection average and a 7 1/3 avg SBR;a copy of hthis study can be ordered from any local library;that's how I got mine.So I thought I would write a little article about Kodak 18% Grey Card and how it relates to photographic metering.
Also might enlighten a few people about light meter calibration in what I hope is as simple and readable and non scientific presentation as possible.
This is draft 1 for proof reading and comments before fixing for 2nd and hopefully last draft:
Please feel free to comment on possible errata, improvments (simple ones and not formulas), grammer, typos, understandable or non understandable etc etc.
Be kind
I'm not looking at standards. I'm making a reasoned attempt to explain the Kodak 18% Grey card and how it relates to photographic exposure (or not) as well as explaining the basics of light metering related to it. But you can't do that without talking about exposure ranges and how light meters actually work. And that drags you and me down the standards path where I'd rather not go because it results in discusions like the one we're having which puts people off.
The problem is there is so much ingrained thinking about an 18% card and so much of what seems to me to be wrong information, that its damn near impossible to break through that and take a fresh look at it and how exposure works, which IS incredibly simple, but not if its mostly based on false truths and you have to explain elementary maths to get past it.
The fact something isn't in a standard doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't implied. Work it out for yourself. The standard meter formulas tells you its there if its using units which work together and not if its using units which don't, but it is implied. You can't multiply Meters by Feet and expect to get a sensible answer without converting to same units so why would you think you can multiply Foot Lamberts by Lux and get a sensible answer. You won't unless you use same units on both sides. SI units being the preffered choice.
So in short, the standards are contrived and create confusion if they are based on mixing up units without applying meaningful conversion to same units.
just to complicate things:I don't think there is such a thing as false truths! and to the discussion at hand:metering method aside:just expose for the shadows,develop for the highlights and ignore the rest.
I'm still waiting for someone to show me my failed reasoning of what a reflection meter actually does. The formula is not mine, the numbers are not mine. The maths says the meter is calbrated to 8% of reading being in middle of curve. I'm not interested in being told the standards don't say that when the metering formula and very simple maths shows it is.
interesting stuff but it is my understanding that the 18% reflection value is based on a Kodakfield study,conducted by Condit in the 1940s,where he took readings of over 100 scenes around Rochester,determining an 18% reflection average and a 7 1/3 avg SBR;a copy of hthis study can be ordered from any local library;that's how I got mine.
I'm still waiting for someone to show me my failed reasoning of what a reflection meter actually does. The formula is not mine, the numbers are not mine. The maths says the meter is calibrated to 8% of reading being in middle of curve. I'm not interested in being told the standards don't say that when the metering formula and very simple maths shows it is.
Well, you can measure its reflection density with a densitometer;It should be 0.75.The one from Kodak I have ,does and that calculates to 18% BTWAnd there is no guarantee the gray card you are using has the specific reflectance value it claims. The quality control on these things can be awful.
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