FB washing method?

Flotsam said:

Do you give the prints a first wash before the hypo clear? Perma Wash calls for one.

I like to visit that APUG chat room while washing my prints. I need a countdown timer program for my computer

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Yes, sorry - left out that bit. The full sequence is: from the fixer (single bath - checked for clearing time and silver content before use) they get 3 - 5 mins wash in running water then in to a holding bath for 30 mins or more while I continue printing and then all in to the hypo clear and a quick rinse (probably pointless, but makes me feel good!) before going in to the 1st wash.

I use the freeware Fotolab software on my laptop from: http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/fotolab.htm - the price is right and it works The Dry Side component includes a handy test-strip calculator - useful for those of us that like to use use f-stop printing timings but have not got an f-stop timer....

Cheers, Bob.

I develop, stop and fix. Then bathe in Zone VI hypo clearing agent (similar to permawash) for 10-15 minutes. I then wash in an Oriental archival washer for 1 1/2 hours. I dry the prints on screens. At that point I store these prints in archival sleeves.

Once I have an inventory of at least 8-10 prints I do a selenium toning process. I take the prints out of the sleeves and put them in a tray of water and make sure they are completely soaked. I then take 3 and place them in a bath of pure hypo (I use zone vi). I agitate them in the hypo for 5 minutes and then place them directly in a tray of selenium toner that is mixed using hypo clearing agent/permawash. I tone for 3 to 7 minutes (until I have a slight color change and increase in d-max). I take the prints out and place them in a tray of running water. When I complete this process for all prints. I put them back into the archival washer for another 1 1/2 hour wash. I prefer the archival washer to the tray method because the water washes the prints individually from top to bottom. Gravity helps remove the fixer.

I did what Lee suggested some time ago and got a residual fixer test kit.
I found no difference between using a constant flow of water over a print and stand and fill method. I tested some test prints on Ilford MGIV going from fix to a holding tray for anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes, then hypo clear, then into trays replacing with fresh water every 15 minutes for 45 minutes. I set up three trays (11x14 for 8x10s and 14x17 for 11x14) so I can transfer prints from tray to tray.

The fixer test showed no difference between this method and using a cascade style washer. Both showed cleared of fixer by 45 minutes with the initial soaking and then hypo clearing.

Of course several variables can play into which method someone chooses. The cascade style washers take up much less space and once you insert a print you can forget about it until the time is up. You do use a lot more water.

One other thing to note is that I think the idea that addding a "fresh" print to either method will re-contaminate the other prints. I have read that this does not happen if the print has been soaked for a few minutes initially and treated with ahypo clearing agent prior.

I always hold all of my prints in a tub of water until the end of a session and then bring them through the wash process as a single bunch.

I have heard from several sources that soaking the prints and then completely changing the water is just as effective as complicated (and expensive) flow and circulation schemes. It is interesting to read posts from those who have confirmed this with fixer tests.

Yep! Actually the soak and dump method is both more effective - and more efficient (than running water) for removing fixer from both paper and film.

The residual fixer needs to diffuse out of the photographic emulsion and substrate and into the water. Soaking and dumping is the best way to optimize this chemical diffusion process. Ilford, Kodak, et al, test data and other documentation support this. There are multiple APUG threads that discuss this subject.

Bob F. said:

... hypo clear followed by 6 x 15 minute soak and dumps.

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By some measure not so efficient of time and resources
as might be. You're and my method are the same; essentially
a still water diffusion wash.

The 6 x 15 soaks are too many and only keep you going back
and forth unnecessarily. Give the following routine some thought.

After your last fix, rinse, HCA, rinse then hold. Your holding
tray is also the first of two trays needed for washing. Place a
hydrophobic separator sheet on the bottom with about 8 ounces
of water. Be sure all the air is driven from the sheet. Lay on
you're print, add another sheet and measure of water. You
are ready to place the next print. The top of stack print
must also have a sheet plus measure of water.

Allow 15 minutes for diffusion to take place after placing the
last print. Do not disturb. Afterwards repeat for a second wash.
Allow 30 minutes for diffusion after placing the last print. Do not
disturb. A third wash is advisable. Allow 60 minutes. I try to time
matters so that the third undisturbed wash is overnight.
Rinse once prior to drying.

Times are flexible. Do allow enough. Above volumes are based
on 8 x 10s. The deep hypo trays should be a good choice where
quite a number of prints are to be washed.

Squeeze, rinse, and Squeeze the separators twixt washes.
I've tested a few materials and at present have for use sheet
polyester batting material which is available from
any fabric outlelt.

If water is in short supply very thin material can be used
although a forth or more washes may be needed. As is I've
archival wash results with less than a liter of H2O per 8 x 10.

Hassel? Some. But then again two trays, two bucks for the
separators, and I dare say, less water by quite a margin
over any other wash method. And don't forget, Do Not
Disturb. I like that last part especially. Dan

Bob, Sounds good where could someone get hydrophobic sheeting for $2 a sheet? The only such sheeting I'm familiar with runs about $70 for on 18x18 inch piece. Please where is your source!! Is what you mean by hydrophobic seperator, a membrane which allows the chemistry to pass while resisting water absorption, like a polyethylene or polyproplyene membrane, (possibly silica sheet)? Or is there a less complicated watrer resistent porous material I don't know about?

Chris

Because I have more water than time I don't use the soak and dump method.

I process working prints: last fix, hold in rotary washer with a trickle of running water, after last print wash 2 mints (rotary washer) Permawash soak 2 mints, rotary wash 10 mints, dry. Archival fix, hold, 2 mint wash, Permawash 3 mints, move to archival washer for 60 mints then dry. If for some reason I can't get Permawash I use Orbit Bath or HCA and adjust the times. Ilford's recommendation for archival washing is to use their brand of Permawash followed by a 5 mint wash. 16 X 20 or 20X 24 will not fit in either my rotary or archival washer so I use a play pool with 2 Kodak siphons.

Paul Howell said:

Because I have more water than time I don't use the soak and dump method.

I process working prints: last fix, hold in rotary washer with a trickle of running water, after last print wash 2 mints (rotary washer) Permawash soak 2 mints, rotary wash 10 mints, dry. Archival fix, hold, 2 mint wash, Permawash 3 mints, move to archival washer for 60 mints then dry. If for some reason I can't get Permawash I use Orbit Bath or HCA and adjust the times. Ilford's recommendation for archival washing is to use their brand of Permawash followed by a 5 mint wash. 16 X 20 or 20X 24 will not fit in either my rotary or archival washer so I use a play pool with 2 Kodak siphons.

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Paul, residual fixer is removed from the emusion and substrate by chemical diffusion of the residual fixer (and HCA, if any) into water. As a consequence, it is the soak time plus the removal (dump) of the soak water that determines the archival condition of the washed prints - not the volume of water that you run over the surface of the print

I fix my prints for 1 minute in a non hardening rapid fix, usually Ilford Hypam at the 1:4 dilution, the prints then go into a 24x28" deep wash tray that is slowly filled by a Kodak tray siphon, this acts as the holding tank. When I'm ready to wash the prints, no more than 6 at a time go into large trays, the first tray is perma wash, and they get continually shuffled in there for at least 5 to 6 minutes. From there they go into a second perma wash tray but this one has selenium toner in it as well, they remain there, with continual shuffling for 5-6 minutes. After that they go into a 20x24" Calumet archival washer with a water flow rate of about a gallon a minute, usually about an hour and fifteen before the first print has gone into and out of the washer. From there they air dry on screens.

Rapid fixer 1 minute
holding tank
perma wash 5-6 minutes
perma wash with selenium 5-6 minutes
archival washer 1 hour minimum
screen drying

Saganich said:

Bob, Sounds good where could someone get hydrophobic sheeting for $2 a sheet? The only such sheeting I'm familiar with runs about $70 for on 18x18 inch piece. Please where is your source!! Is what you mean by hydrophobic seperator, a membrane which allows the chemistry to pass while resisting water absorption, like a polyethylene or polyproplyene membrane, (possibly silica sheet)? Or is there a less complicated watrer resistent porous material I don't know about?

Chris

Click to expand...

Chris, it was Dan who uses the hydrophobic sheeting. I have no idea where such a creature may be obtained. Sounds like a sheet of plastic to me, but I assume it's more involved than that... I use a normal vertical washer now and used to use a plastic tank using a Paterson RC print drier to separate the sheets.

Cheers, Bob.

Chris: For hydrophobic sheeting, you probably should consider low-loft, bonded polyester batting from your local fabric store.

"Polyester batting is unbonded and is made from synthetic fibers. Regardless of wear and washing, most polyester batting will return to its original shape because it is extremely resilient. It is lightweight, non-allergenic, and cannot be harmed by moths or mildew. Polyester batting starts with polyester fibers that are fed through a carding machine. Once fed through, the blanket or batting that comes out is called unbonded batting. It is available in many weights and thicknesses, but it also has few drawbacks. Its loose construction makes it difficult to work with, and high and low areas often develop. Because there is no finish, the fibers tend to migrate through the fabric in the quilt - a problem of great concern for quiltmakers. To lessen the chance of fiber migration, it is advisable to cover the unbonded batting with cheesecloth or a lightweight fabric. The high-loft, unbonded batting is a popular choice for tied comforters.

Bonded batting has a light resin coating or glaze applied to both sides of the batting. This coating adds strength and locks the fibers to help prevent fiber migration. The newer, heat-sealed fibers create a similar effect. Bonded batting usually has a higher loft and an airier appearance than a needle-punched batting. It holds up well with use and does not require extensive quilting. Therefore, it is ideal for both comforters and quilts. Because it is so easy to handle, many quiltmakers prefer bonded batting above all others, for both machine and hand quilting.

Bonded batting is available in low-loft - good for hand or machine quilting, clothing, craft projects, baby stuff; extra-loft - good for hand or machine quilting, padded walls and upholstery, tied quilts and comforters, craft projects; hi-loft - good for comforters; and tied quilts, upholstery, sleeping, baby quilts; crafter's choice - hand or machine quilting, place mats, baby stuff, clothing."

Tom,

Great that sounds less expensive then laboratory membrane. For large prints this may be the ideal wasghing method.