favorite glycol source?

Murray@uptowngallery · Oct 11, 2007

I have not been able to relax with the concept of mystery additives in automotive propylene glycol antifreeze, so I keep wrestling with this.

It occurred to me that RV/mobile home PG antifreeze might be 'cleaner'.

1) Am I worrying unneccessarily about what kind of antifreeze to choose?

2) Has anyone else found success with the RV variety?

Thanks

Murray

Mike Wilde · Oct 11, 2007

JD sourced mine

JD Photochem came up with the prop glycol that I use for dev stock solution use. I have no idea where Claire sources it from, but it is working fine for me.

mgb74 · Oct 11, 2007

I've been wondering about a source as well. RV antifreeze is cheap, but certainly has additives (dye, if nothing else). Mail order sources are out there, but shipping gets expensive.

One possible source may be farm stores. Apparently propylene glycol is used to treat dairy cows for ketosis (whatever that is). I looked once in a store outside of Minneapolis that stocks dairy farm "stuff", but could not find it. Next time I'm there I'll ask.

eclarke · Oct 11, 2007

Look in the Business yellow pages. Any company who sells industrial solvents has all the glycols...Evan Clarke

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 11, 2007

In Canada: JD Photochem

In the USA: The Chemistry Store

Google them for their URLs

Jim Noel · Oct 11, 2007

I use anti-freeze meant for RV potable water systems with no problem. It has a little color, but this does not appear to have any effect.

Googling produces the info that it is used for horses, especially in colder climates. It is put in water to keep it from freezing and,as i remember, used to rub them don in certain cases. I have not bought any at such places but have been told that they carry it in gallons and that it is cheaper than at RV suppliers.

Murray@uptowngallery · Oct 12, 2007

I'll guess (tongue in cheek) - ungulates with ketosis probably get is from drinking diet soft drinks.

Something caused by ketone-derivatives? Seriously, diet soda sometimes is labeled :"Phenylketonurics warning - contains phenylalanine"

Maybe it's a similar condition.

Murray

Murray@uptowngallery · Jan 3, 2008

Killed that thread...no use beating a dead horse har har har

Erik L · Jan 3, 2008

Solar panel installers

I picked some up from a local solar panel installer, real cheap if I remember. it was clear in color. I haven't used it for chemicals, but I use it for my pottery business. Just a thought
regards
Erik

Murray@uptowngallery · Jan 4, 2008

OK.

I just looked at an MSDS sheet
Dead Link Removed
for some brand of pink RV antifreeze, and it's disappointing (understandably).

25.5% propylene glycol
76.5% water
<1 % pink dye

That adds up to 102-103% (maybe they are maxima), but the large water component shows it doesn't serve the purpose of use for a waterless base.

Others have pointed out some contain sodium silicate.

Another
Dead Link Removed

PG >35%
H2O >60%
proprietary additives <5%

That's enough info for me.

craigclu · Jan 4, 2008

I get mine from JD but thought I'd add.... I once tried swimming pool antifreeze that stated 100% PG. It had a faint blue dye in it that seemed to be the only likely difference. I never got consistent results with the stuff, though and my only other use is for mixing a bit with distilled water for use in my humidors as a cigar aid.

Murray@uptowngallery · Jan 4, 2008

I haven't found a better price than The Chemistry Store, that's certain.

Also found Dow Chemical/Union Carbide's amines data today and it was interesting that they have three different types of TEA: various % of TEA, DEA & water. One is 99% TEA. I don't imagine those are the same class/grade.

Photo Engineer · Jan 4, 2008

Your TEA and PG should be free of water and your TEA should have NO DEA or the pH will be too high!

Have fun with chemistry but look out for PG with dye in it. It can stain film and paper. Also, don't heat it over the flash point. This has been covered elsewhere. The instructions given by some, suggest heating PG, but the fumes can ignite if they come into contact with a flame or exceed the flash point.

PE

gainer · Jan 4, 2008

The Dow site shows charts of pH as a function of water content for two grades of TEA, DEA and MEA. Even if you want the high pH of MEA, read carefully ALL of its characteristics. The two grades of TEA differ mostly in their DEA content. If you are using one of my recipes, get the 99% grade because that's what I used.

I suggest you get a candy thermometer and keep track of temperature. There is no chemical reaction reason for high temperature. It is physical chemistry. TEA can freeze at room temperature, and it can also supercool, but in any case, it is very viscous where you are most comfortable, which means it will take a looong time to dissolve anything with only stirring. Read up on flashpoint. Wikipedia has a detailed discussion. A double boiler with water in the bottom should keep things at a safe level if the head of the house will allow it. You may have to get one of your own.

Murray@uptowngallery · Jan 4, 2008

Well, I guess I don't need to make concentrates, then. Too much unpleasantry with the heat.

Water works for the acetaminophen and coffee-based developers.

For Phenidone, maybe I'll try a little bit of low-hydrous or anhydrous alcohol.

I think that's my comfort level with hazards. I did all my crazier stuff when I was 50% younger. Done with that.

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 5, 2008

Murray@uptowngallery said:
Well, I guess I don't need to make concentrates, then. Too much unpleasantry with the heat.

There is no need to mix developer concentrates at high temperatures - 80 to 90 degrees F (i.e. a water bath) works fine.

[/QUOTE]Water works for the acetaminophen and coffee-based developers. [/QUOTE]

Actually, Water and an alkali - like sodium carbonate (washing Soda)

But first you need to chemically react the acetaminophen with alkali and water to get P-Aminophenol (the stuff you really want).

[/QUOTE]I think that's my comfort level with hazards. I did all my crazier stuff when I was 50% younger. Done with that.[/QUOTE]

Murray: I suggest signing up for a beginning chemistry course at your local community college - or use ready mixed photographic chemistry.

Kirk Keyes · Jan 5, 2008

Murray@uptowngallery said:
I think that's my comfort level with hazards. I did all my crazier stuff when I was 50% younger. Done with that.

"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Callahan, Magnum Force (1973)

I appreciate when someone is willing to voice this view.

While the basics of lab chemistry can be learned, it does take some effort and time. If you're not comfortable handling some of these chemicals, it's best to take this approach.

eclarke · Jan 5, 2008

Hi Murray,
Look in the business pages under industrial chemicals or lab chemicals. I am in Milwaukee and have 5 or 6 sources where I can pick up pure solvents at cheap prices..Evan Clarke

Murray@uptowngallery · Jan 5, 2008

I had inorganic & organic chem in high school then inorganic in college (decades ago). Still taking classes, too, but only what I need and what's required...no room or time for the luxury of review (or photography) or past classes at this time :O(

I'm just drawing the line on which process hazards I want to expose myself to. Maybe I came across as clueless. A certain group of chemicals are unavoidable (necessary).

It is helpful to read anecdotal experiences to the effect of 'warm water bath suffices'.

Evan, thanks. I gave up too soon yesterday on the web with too many ad-bot generated links that didn't have what the link/name said.

I must have looked at 10 sites that had Michigan Chemical Supplier or similar in their name that were everywhere from North Carolina to Canada (?!?)....not to mention eBay and NexTag BS.

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 5, 2008

Murray@uptowngallery said:
I had inorganic & organic chem in high school then inorganic in college (decades ago). Still taking classes, too, but only what I need and what's required...no room or time for the luxury of review (or photography) or past classes at this time :O(

I'm just drawing the line on which process hazards I want to expose myself to. Maybe I came across as clueless. A certain group of chemicals are unavoidable (necessary).

It is helpful to read anecdotal experiences to the effect of 'warm water bath suffices'.

Evan, thanks. I gave up too soon yesterday on the web with too many ad-bot generated links that didn't have what the link/name said.

I must have looked at 10 sites that had Michigan Chemical Supplier or similar in their name that were everywhere from North Carolina to Canada (?!?)....not to mention eBay and NexTag BS.

Murray, I have successfully mixed a lot (many liters) of developing chemistry and developer stock concentrates in Propylene Glycol and Triethanolamine or combinations of these 2 solvents - using either a warm water bath or my lab's ambient temperature to keep the mixture between 80 and 90 degrees F.

Examples include concentrated stock solutions of Phenidone, Pyrogallol, Catechol, Hydroquinone, Glycin and Amidol

Also includes Pyrocat-HD,Solution A,Pyrocat-P, Solution A, Pyrocat-MC Solution A, Instant Mytol and Ansco 130-TEA.

No developing chemistry failures yet...

Murray@uptowngallery · Jan 5, 2008

Next photochem order, I'll just get a legitimate bottle of TEA or PG, tbd. Don't need much at a time anyway. I was thinking gallons because of the buckets of other things I bought from chemically and ritually impure sources..

Water will do for the time being with acetaminophen.

Anhydrous alcohol, stirring and patience will do with initial phenidone work. Web data sheets say it dissolves in hot water, but it must take more patience than photographers have.

Muray

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 5, 2008

Murray@uptowngallery said:
Next photochem order, I'll just get a legitimate bottle of TEA or PG, tbd. Don't need much at a time anyway. I was thinking gallons because of the buckets of other things I bought from chemically and ritually impure sources..

Water will do for the time being with acetaminophen.

Phenidone will dissolve in alcohol (the drier the alcohol, the better) but the alcohol will grab water molecules and the Phenidone will start dying.

Better to use a Glycol or Glycerin as the Phenidone solvent.

Water won't do the job by itself with acetaminophen. You will need to react the acetaminophen with water and a base to get the chemical that you really want (p-aminophenol). Easier to buy a few grams of p-aminophenol from Photographer's Formulary

gainer · Jan 6, 2008

A brisker oven, such as is used for rising bread dough, is a handy thing to have. It keeps a constant 104 F . Solvents like glycerin and TEA are so viscous at 70 F that you think they are not disolving the chems that should dissolve. My impatience was probably the reason for my using such inordinately high temperatures when I first started experimenting with organic solvents. Now if an experiment fails, I can console myself with a loaf of home made bread.

favorite glycol source?

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