F5 and flashes

[reakeener1970]

Hi,
I have an F5 with an SB-24 but recently learned that, while it does support the TTL metering for the F5, it does NOT emit pre-flashes as, say, the SB-26 or 28 does, which, presumably, heighten the accuracy of the TTL. Does anyone have actual hands-on experience out there with the two? If so, does the 28 give more consistently reliable exposures than the 24?
Thanks!


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[reakeener1970]

I should add that I have only recently started using the 24 so don,t know if it is working well or not yet.


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[Ricardo Miranda]

It all depends on the lens(es) you have and the metering you are using.
The SB-26 or -28 will work in conjunction with a D lens to give more accurate flash exposures for the subject in sharp focus using the Matrix metering.
The SB-24 was released for the F-801/F4 type cameras and so it isn't prepared to work with D lenses and use the additional distance indication.
The first camera to use D lenses was the F90 in 92 together with the SB-25.

 

[pentaxuser]

I might be way off beam here but isn't the pre-flashes function there to improve the focusing? On my Pentax, if I recall correctly, the pre-flashes operate when the light is so poor, such as outdoors at night, that the auto-focusing can't operate properly. If I am right then the pre-flashes function will only be needed if you need to use the flash in very dark conditions. In anything like normal room-light or even street light the autofocus should operate OK

pentaxuser

 

[Chan Tran]

The flash has a red light to assist focus in the dark. The pre-flash is supposed to improve accuracy.

 

[pentaxuser]

The flash has a red light to assist focus in the dark. The pre-flash is supposed to improve accuracy.

Thanks and how critical is the improvement in accuracy?

pentaxuser

 

[reakeener1970]

Well, I shoot mainly Fujichrome Provia and some Velvia with my F5, usually with a 50mm 1.8 G lens. With the narrow latitude transparency film has, and the extra cost both in terms of the film itself and E-6 developing (even if I do do it myself, which I just started doing), when compared to B&W, I like to make sure if I need a flash that it will produce the best results possible given the non-studio settings in which I operate. With the G lens, it should take advantage of the flash's monitor pre flashing, just wondering if it really makes a consistent difference when compared to the sb-24 which is still TTL, but not using monitor pre flashing. If the SB-28 will give me more consistently accurate exposures (esp with bounce flashing, which I almost always use) then I would like to switch to it. Just wondering if anyone has had any actual hands on time with both on an F5 and if they noticed any difference in consistency (esp with bounce flashing).


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[Chan Tran]

Thanks and how critical is the improvement in accuracy?

pentaxuser

It's quite complex and you may want to read the article in the following link.
http://mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/NikonF5/Flash/index1.htm

In my personal experience it would do a great job in fill flash but rather poor when the flash is the only light source. I sent my F5 back to Nikon for repair under warranty because of this but it came back the same (actually even a bit worse the second time).

 

[John Koehrer]

Another advantage to preflash is in eliminating redeye.

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

When I did wedding photography in the late film era I actually took a backwards step and standardized on Nikon F4's rather than either the F5 or the F100 just for how the camera metered the flash Especially (and I mean ESPECIALLY yes I mean to shout!) with Manual focus lenses. As long as the F4 secondary metering lever was engaged the Flash Matrix Metering would function and function really well. It allowed me to keep using some of my well used and appreciated Nikon MF lens such as the 35mm 1.4 N and the 85mm 1.8 H.C with a functional, flexible and trustworthy TTL flash system. At the time Nikon had a two good AF 85mm lenses but no 35mm f/1.4 AF.

I mostly used Metz but also SB-24/6. The Metz module for the Nikon had a set of very clever Flash exposure compensation switches; one for +/- 0 in 1/3 steps and another +/- in FULL stops. This for me was hugely effective; I could shoot the formals super quickly and accurately by just physically shifting one lever, adding 2/3 or subtracting 2/3 of flash power depending if I was shooting the groomsmen in black or bridesmaids in light tones. The fact that I could *instantly* adjust this without looking at a menu or tapping a 'soft key' meant I was way more engaging and personable during the session, keeping a light conversation as I adjusted my flash levels to make a really consistent negative.

 

[reakeener1970]

Firstly, awesome info everyone. Thanks! After reading article referenced by Chan Tran, I guess a more succinct way to phrase my question would therefore be:
Does Nikon's 3D multi-sensor balanced fill-flash give consistently better exposures than (non-"3D") multi-sensor balanced fill flash?


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[Henning Serger]

Hello,

Well, I shoot mainly Fujichrome Provia and some Velvia with my F5, usually with a 50mm 1.8 G lens. With the narrow latitude transparency film has, and the extra cost both in terms of the film itself and E-6 developing (even if I do do it myself, which I just started doing), when compared to B&W, I like to make sure if I need a flash that it will produce the best results possible given the non-studio settings in which I operate. With the G lens, it should take advantage of the flash's monitor pre flashing, just wondering if it really makes a consistent difference when compared to the sb-24 which is still TTL, but not using monitor pre flashing. If the SB-28 will give me more consistently accurate exposures (esp with bounce flashing, which I almost always use) then I would like to switch to it. Just wondering if anyone has had any actual hands on time with both on an F5 and if they noticed any difference in consistency (esp with bounce flashing).

go for the SB-28, the Metz 54 MZ-4i with the dedicated SCA adaptor or the SB-800. With all three you will get significantly better results as with the SB-24.
The SB-800 has also the advantage of the current improved i-TTL system: So if you may upgrade to an F6 in the future (which I can highly recommend from my experience with both the F5 and F6) you already have the perfect fit with the SB-800 (which is also downward compatible to all former Nikons).

I am using the Metz but mostly two SB-800 on my Nikons. Excellent flashes. And in combination with the F6 the SB-800 is a dream combination for flash photography.
But especially for normal photography where a fill-in flash is helpful to manage high contrast scenes:
You get perfectly exposed pictures whith detail both in highlights and shadows. With manual override you can illuminate the scene perfectly. So perfect, that mostly no one is realising that a fill-in flash was used, because the pictures are looking so natural.

As you I am also often using reversal film. High contrast scenes? No problem at all for fill-in flash with the F6 / SB-800 (or F5), it works perfectly.
So you can enjoy all the advantages of reversal / slide film, and you don't have to make a compromise concerning dynamic range. Win-win situation, outstanding results.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Firstly, awesome info everyone. Thanks! After reading article referenced by Chan Tran, I guess a more succinct way to phrase my question would therefore be:
Does Nikon's 3D multi-sensor balanced fill-flash give consistently better exposures than (non-"3D") multi-sensor balanced fill flash?

Yes.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[reakeener1970]

Thanks! Really helpful. I have many manual lenses still.

 

[reakeener1970]

F6... Drool...

 

[reakeener1970]

When I did wedding photography in the late film era I actually took a backwards step and standardized on Nikon F4's rather than either the F5 or the F100 just for how the camera metered the flash Especially (and I mean ESPECIALLY yes I mean to shout!) with Manual focus lenses. As long as the F4 secondary metering lever was engaged the Flash Matrix Metering would function and function really well. It allowed me to keep using some of my well used and appreciated Nikon MF lens such as the 35mm 1.4 N and the 85mm 1.8 H.C with a functional, flexible and trustworthy TTL flash system. At the time Nikon had a two good AF 85mm lenses but no 35mm f/1.4 AF.

I mostly used Metz but also SB-24/6. The Metz module for the Nikon had a set of very clever Flash exposure compensation switches; one for +/- 0 in 1/3 steps and another +/- in FULL stops. This for me was hugely effective; I could shoot the formals super quickly and accurately by just physically shifting one lever, adding 2/3 or subtracting 2/3 of flash power depending if I was shooting the groomsmen in black or bridesmaids in light tones. The fact that I could *instantly* adjust this without looking at a menu or tapping a 'soft key' meant I was way more engaging and personable during the session, keeping a light conversation as I adjusted my flash levels to make a really consistent negative.

Do you recall which Metz unit?

 

[Chan Tran]

The settings is in the dedicated module used on several different flashes. I used one on my 60CT4

 

[MartinCrabtree]

I simply cannot see the F6 being drool worthy. Why does everyone feel that way? Cannot find one to rent and am not willing to drop that much to find out. Sticking with the F5 until that lottery money rolls in.

 

[filmamigo]

Slightly off topic to the question, but I went backwards also.

I have abandoned the use of all pre-flash technology. Too many people getting "the blinks" in my photos.

I also get much better and more consistent exposures by using Auto-Thyristor flashes, or using a flash meter and going all manual. I find the Metz CT series to be especially reliable for auto use.

 

[reakeener1970]

I agree with the expense of the F6 being out of control. I haven't tried one so I guess my drool comment has no basis in any kind of knowledge other than that is has the latests sensor technology, etc. etc. (which half of me is addicted to and the other half is anti-tech). It is CRAZY how expensive they are!! I guess Nikon has to mark up the price to make a profit or something due to not as many being sold as digital (?), but still... crazy expensive.

Back to flashes, though, maybe I should look into handheld incidence meter or something for multi flashes and film. Easy to tweak mid-session with digital, but a good part of me worries about trusting auto-anything with film where paying clients are involved. (All my client stuff I do digitally at this point and film for personal use but am working toward incorporating film more in professional work. With available light I have no problem, but with flashes (and not just one on camera pointing at subject -- but one on camera bouncing or maybe a little fill light, plus one or two remotes to the side and or rear) I only feel comfortable doing digitally now as I can review right away.

 

[MartinCrabtree]

I picked up a Quantum Calcu-Flash II flash meter for $30. It's a stop off but consistently a stop. There's cheap one for sale here.

 

[reakeener1970]

You know, let's just cut to the chase here and instead of asking piecemeal questions I'll give you all the scenario and maybe someone will know just what I need.
Setting: outdoor portraiture, various settings to which I travel, no permanent setups, THE MORE AUTOMATED (via TTL), THE BETTER
Nikon F5
Master flash on (or basically next to, via coiled SC-17 cable) camera (assume SB-28 for this flash, but feel free to tell me differently)
Two more flashes on stands triggered remotely as slaves either by cable (SC-19 cables) or visual sensors.
Probably some AS-10 multi flash adapters in there to connect a few SC-19's together for extra length (if a cable connection will be better than optical).

Like I said, I want the best connections and slave flashes that will give me the highest level of TTL automation. I really don't want to check my brain at the door and completely rely on automation, but it would be nice as a safety net at least.
So:
-cable vs optical
-what slave flashes
-any other help

Thanks!

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

With an F5 you need to include at least an AF lens if not a AF-D lens to get the most out of the flash metering. For off camera flash I would recommend the cable set up; I've used the Pocket Wizard Nikon TTL set up and they worked well when you got the booting up sequence correct but all in all those were a bit of a pain to use quickly and with accuracy.

 

[bo eder]

You know, let's just cut to the chase here and instead of asking piecemeal questions I'll give you all the scenario and maybe someone will know just what I need.
Setting: outdoor portraiture, various settings to which I travel, no permanent setups, THE MORE AUTOMATED (via TTL), THE BETTER
Nikon F5
Master flash on (or basically next to, via coiled SC-17 cable) camera (assume SB-28 for this flash, but feel free to tell me differently)
Two more flashes on stands triggered remotely as slaves either by cable (SC-19 cables) or visual sensors.
Probably some AS-10 multi flash adapters in there to connect a few SC-19's together for extra length (if a cable connection will be better than optical).

Like I said, I want the best connections and slave flashes that will give me the highest level of TTL automation. I really don't want to check my brain at the door and completely rely on automation, but it would be nice as a safety net at least.
So:
-cable vs optical
-what slave flashes
-any other help

Thanks!

For years, I've been using whatever manual flashes I could get and triggering with a few pocket wizards. I even have the PocketWizard module in my Sekonic L-358 meter and use that to trigger the lighting to get readings. Works like a charm for film or digital. In your situation I would do that, then you could get cheap flashes, like those YongNuo flashes ($70 each on Amazon), and pick up however many PocketWizards you need (I have four) and the Sekonic with that module. I just think having that kind of control is more fun than letting the TTL stuff do its thing. Then you can modify however you want and it all fits in a small bag.

Have you ever visited the Strobist blog? Go there and check it out. TTL is for the birds

 

[MartinCrabtree]

Have to agree with that. Don't use flash with film often. However with digital (yep I said it) my experience is TTL isn't what the advertising leads you to think it is. That's why I picked up a flash meter.