Extreme Contrast with MG Classic

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

I just bought a box of the Ilford Classic FB paper, and am liking the results so far. I have a few images for which I'd like to get an abnormally high, very graphic contrast. Grade 5 isn't doing it. I'm using a Leica Focomat and Dokumol developer, so that should already be pretty hard. I'm looking for the quickest and easiest way to squeeze out an extra grade or so.

I've read on here about benzotriazole. Would that work with this particular developer and paper? I've also tried bleaching, but I can never quite get the bleach to confine its action to the highlights. I've used straight PF on a partly washed print, and the shadows came up as well. Maybe too much TF-4 left in the paper? I'd rather spike the developer, as it is much simpler, if it will work.

Thanks!

Angelo di Mango · Jun 21, 2016

You can print very dense and bleach the highlights back ...or use a lith developer..

MartinP · Jun 21, 2016

You could make a hard print, then re-photograph it, then selenium tone the resulting neg - and marvel at the high contrast results. You could also do the re-photographing stage on lith film, rather than pictorial film.

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

MartinP said:
You could make a hard print, then re-photograph it, then selenium tone the resulting neg - and marvel at the high contrast results. You could also do the re-photographing stage on lith film, rather than pictorial film.

Now there's an idea! A little elaborate given the volume of work I have at the moment, but this could be a fun project later.

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

michael_r said:
In my experience benzotriazole reduced paper speed but did not materially alter contrast.

You could try intensifying the negative for increased contrast.

That's a shame about the benz. It would have been so easy.

MartinP · Jun 21, 2016

silvergelatin said:
Now there's an idea! A little elaborate given the volume of work I have at the moment, but this could be a fun project later.

It also has the benefit that you can do most of the work on the first print in order that the final prints are easier to turn out, though that is only a benefit where multiple identical final prints are required of course.

Frank53 · Jun 21, 2016

Selenium toning the negative should give some extra contrast.
Frank

tedr1 · Jun 21, 2016

Following the idea of re-photographing the printed image here is another trick that may work to achieve super high contrast. This can be done in the darkroom without a camera. Make copy prints by contact printing to make a "negative print" from the original print. Use the second (negative and reversed) print as a contact negative with a sheet of paper to create a third generation super hard print. There will be dramatic gain in contrast and possibly also some fall in detail. Enlarging paper is intrinsically contrast amplifying, even grade 2 paper amplifies contrast about 2x.

jeffreyg · Jun 21, 2016

Are you looking for a posterization effect? If so a paper negative may be the way to go. If you can find single weight paper that helps. The old Agfa Brovira grade 5 used to work well for that technique. I've never used it but you might check with the Photographer's Formulary about their Formulary Amidol Paper Developer used undiluted.
It's been many years since I made a posterized print but when I did I used Brovira 5 and then x-ray duplicating film for the final negatives. I came out with just black and the white base of the paper. While it may not be appropriate for this forum you might also consider making a digital negative from a scanned negative that you modify with software and then invert and print or a print that you rephotograph on to film.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

bdial · Jun 21, 2016

Bleach will work fastest on the highlight areas, but it will affect everything. So you probably want to make the print a little darker, so that it bleaches back to what you're looking for. You can also play with the bleach dilution to slow it down a little to make things more controllable.
However, if you are looking to get a very graphic look, a lith developer will probably do better.

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

bdial said:
Bleach will work fastest on the highlight areas, but it will affect everything. So you probably want to make the print a little darker, so that it bleaches back to what you're looking for. You can also play with the bleach dilution to slow it down a little to make things more controllable.
However, if you are looking to get a very graphic look, a lith developer will probably do better.

I was probably using too strong a concentration. I'll play with this more.

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

Frank53 said:
Selenium toning the negative should give some extra contrast.
Frank

I've done this before and it worked well. I think I tried a brown toner as well for a stronger effect. Smelled terrible

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

jeffreyg said:
Are you looking for a posterization effect? If so a paper negative may be the way to go. If you can find single weight paper that helps. The old Agfa Brovira grade 5 used to work well for that technique. I've never used it but you might check with the Photographer's Formulary about their Formulary Amidol Paper Developer used undiluted.
It's been many years since I made a posterized print but when I did I used Brovira 5 and then x-ray duplicating film for the final negatives. I came out with just black and the white base of the paper. While it may not be appropriate for this forum you might also consider making a digital negative from a scanned negative that you modify with software and then invert and print or a print that you rephotograph on to film.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

tedr1 said:
Following the idea of re-photographing the printed image here is another trick that may work to achieve super high contrast. This can be done in the darkroom without a camera. Make copy prints by contact printing to make a "negative print" from the original print. Use the second (negative and reversed) print as a contact negative with a sheet of paper to create a third generation super hard print. There will be dramatic gain in contrast and possibly also some fall in detail. Enlarging paper is intrinsically contrast amplifying, even grade 2 paper amplifies contrast about 2x.

Thanks. Paper negatives are something I always wanted to try, but probably not for this project due to volume.

cliveh · Jun 21, 2016

silvergelatin said:
I just bought a box of the Ilford Classic FB paper, and am liking the results so far. I have a few images for which I'd like to get an abnormally high, very graphic contrast. Grade 5 isn't doing it. I'm using a Leica Focomat and Dokumol developer, so that should already be pretty hard. I'm looking for the quickest and easiest way to squeeze out an extra grade or so.

I've read on here about benzotriazole. Would that work with this particular developer and paper? I've also tried bleaching, but I can never quite get the bleach to confine its action to the highlights. I've used straight PF on a partly washed print, and the shadows came up as well. Maybe too much TF-4 left in the paper? I'd rather spike the developer, as it is much simpler, if it will work.

Thanks!

Why not contact print the neg onto lith film and contact again to revert back to negative and print that?

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 21, 2016

The description of Dokumol is more akin to a developer that produces great gradation. You might wish to seek out a paper developer with stronger contrast.

Ilford paper can be a little weak for really high contrast work. I might seek out something like Foma Fomabrom 111 paper instead, which I believe will yield higher contrast. That has been my experience anyway.

Intensifying your negative only works well if you already have a negative with fairly high contrast. In lower contrast negatives it will not make much difference, as the effect of the selenium is relative to negative density; it turns pure silver into silver selenide, and the more silver there is to begin with the more silver selenide you get as a result.

Marco Buonocore · Jun 21, 2016

You could also use chromium intensifier on the prints. I used to do it with IMG IV, and it worked well. The process is outlined in the Darkroom Cookbook. Make sure to give the prints a long wash between bleaching and re-development. Might as well do it on the negs as well.

Contrary to what michael_r says above, I have found that BZT does increase contrast in paper. If it's restraining the highlights, how can it do anything but increase the contrast? It's quite apparent if you test it with a step wedge.

Often all these things are small gains, but you add them all together and you start getting somewhere.

Lith would be easier and more dramatic, but of course IMG Classic doesn't lith traditionally. I've never tried the bleach and re-develop in lith technique that Tim Rudman suggests in one of his books.

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

Thanks, everyone. Some of you have a strange idea of "quickest and easiest" . But I definitely appreciate the suggestions.

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

Marco Buonocore said:
You could also use chromium intensifier on the prints. I used to do it with IMG IV, and it worked well. The process is outlined in the Darkroom Cookbook. Make sure to give the prints a long wash between bleaching and re-development. Might as well do it on the negs as well.

Contrary to what michael_r says above, I have found that BZT does increase contrast in paper. If it's restraining the highlights, how can it do anything but increase the contrast? It's quite apparent if you test it with a step wedge.

Often all these things are small gains, but you add them all together and you start getting somewhere.

Lith would be easier and more dramatic, but of course IMG Classic doesn't lith traditionally. I've never tried the bleach and re-develop in lith technique that Tim Rudman suggests in one of his books.

Thanks. I've lith'd on the past, but it's a bit of a pronounced effect. I'm just going for abnormally high contrast but still recognizable as a straight-ish print kind of look. Basically just trying to get a grade 6 or 7 out of my grade 5 filter and paper.

Interesting about the BZT, and it kind of matches what I've read. Some people swear it increases contrast, and some say it doesn't. It's cheap enough to just try it and see if it works with my current materials.

silvergelatin · Jun 21, 2016

Thomas Bertilsson said:
The description of Dokumol is more akin to a developer that produces great gradation. You might wish to seek out a paper developer with stronger contrast.

Ilford paper can be a little weak for really high contrast work. I might seek out something like Foma Fomabrom 111 paper instead, which I believe will yield higher contrast. That has been my experience anyway.

Intensifying your negative only works well if you already have a negative with fairly high contrast. In lower contrast negatives it will not make much difference, as the effect of the selenium is relative to negative density; it turns pure silver into silver selenide, and the more silver there is to begin with the more silver selenide you get as a result.

I do tend to develop my negs a bit soft with compensating developer, so that's a good point about the proportional effect of selenium.

I had a love affair with Foma papers, but the emulsion was so delicate, I had too many scratched prints. I bought a 250 sheet 11x14 box of the Ilford for economy over a fairly large project, so I'm stuck with it. Interestingly, when I was researching paper developers, Dokumol came up as reportedly the hardest. It is definitely more brutal than LPD, but is there some even more, um, violently high contrast developer I could try? (Something pre-made and easy to buy. I'm not a chemistry buff )

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 21, 2016

silvergelatin said:
I do tend to develop my negs a bit soft with compensating developer, so that's a good point about the proportional effect of selenium.

I had a love affair with Foma papers, but the emulsion was so delicate, I had too many scratched prints. I bought a 250 sheet 11x14 box of the Ilford for economy over a fairly large project, so I'm stuck with it. Interestingly, when I was researching paper developers, Dokumol came up as reportedly the hardest. It is definitely more brutal than LPD, but is there some even more, um, violently high contrast developer I could try? (Something pre-made and easy to buy. I'm not a chemistry buff )

I think you may be stuck with selective bleaching, and/or toning methods, then. You could use a condenser enlarger, which has the highest contrast of all. I use a Focomat too, and it's more diffuse light than my Omega (which does yield more contrast).
Check out Bruce Barnbaum's selective bleaching, where he essentially paints with pot ferri to bleach select areas of the print. It takes a lot of practice, but is a great technique for when dodging is not a good option.

I should also add that it's probably better to decide what you want your prints to look like before you process your film, and then give enough negative development to achieve what you want. Soft negs for hard prints is probably not the best way...

Doremus Scudder · Jun 21, 2016

I'll add one more possibility: Bleach and redevelop the negative in a staining developer. I do this all the time to up contrast on weak negatives. The procedure is to use a rehalogenating bleach of potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. Bleach the negative to completion and then redevelop it in a staining developer like PMK or Pyrocat. The silver image is redeveloped along with the stain image that adds extra contrast. Everything can be done in room light.

Best,

Doremus

Pat Erson · Jun 22, 2016

Dokumol at 1+4 dilution?

silvergelatin · Jun 22, 2016

michael_r said:
I suggest trying it for yourself, but it appears to be another myth. I tested it with exactly this paper using different concentrations, contacted a series of step wedges, and found it really only shifted the curve to the right (ie reduced speed). Even with the addition of large amounts and/or stronger anti-foggants such as PMT the results were similar.

Are there any additives that would achieve a contrast increase?

silvergelatin · Jun 22, 2016

michael_r said:
Not that I know of. If you need a significant contrast increase (ie at least 1 grade) I'd suggest one of the other methods people have described above. I'd start simple and go from there:

-Depending on developer, try benzotriazole or combinations of benzotriazole and KBr

-Try a more contrasty paper than MG Classic. Note MG Classic has a longer shoulder and toe than many other papers, which can make it appear less contrasty.

-Intensify the negative

-Try bleaching the print with a "sub-proportional" reducer

-Make a higher contrast duplicate of the negative (various methods)

-Make a contrast increasing mask

Thanks. I have some MCC 110 I could try, and some fixed grade 4 Fomabrom, but not much of it. If I remember correctly, it is pretty hard in Dokumol. What about the Oriental VC paper? I can buy it locally, so that's attractive, if it is harder.

I played around with ferri bleach a bit more last night, and got a dilution that seems to be good for popping highlights. I'll keep that up today.

silvergelatin · Jun 22, 2016

What is the best sequence for bleaching? Right now, I am fixing as usual (TF-4), then washing with a couple of fills and dumps in a tray, then brushing on the ferri and rinsing until it looks good. Then back into the TF-4 for a minute.

Extreme Contrast with MG Classic

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