Exposure without a meter

I know there are a lot of threads on this but I have not seen on with what I am looking for.

I recently purchased a Yashica A TLR and took it to my local camera guy who specializes in repairing older cameras. While I was there I happened to notice he had a number of old Weston meters and asked him if he had any working and for sale. He proceeded to tell me that I do not need one and that "now-a-days real photographers do not need a fancy camera with a meter to take great photos."

He gave me a little lesson on how to use a simplified Exposure Value System (EV). It "seems" flawless but I am trying to poke holes at it to understand it better. And since I wont see him until my camera is ready (he lives about 30 mins away) I figured I would post it up here.

His method:
EV= Tv+Lv (where Tv is time value and Lv is Light value or aperture pretty strait forward to this point) note all this for ISO 100 you add one to your EV for every higher ISO E.I. ISO200 +1, ISO400 +2, etc

To determine Tv and Lv you first have to determine EV and you do this buy shear guestimation. Meaning you know a Sunny days is EV 16-15 Landscapes are about 10 and home interiors are about 5-7. Once you can easily figure out the EV the rest is easy

for Tv
1s=0, 1/2=1, 1/4=2, 1/8=3, 1/15=4, 1/30=5, 1/60=7 and all down the line
For Lv
F/1=0, F/1.4=1, F/2=2, F/2.8=3, F/4=4, F/5.6=5, F/8=6 and all down the line

Now for the example EV=Tv+Lv
Say you are taking a picture of an interior with bright lights that is about EV 8

you pick the combination that equals 8 = (1/15s + F/4)



This method blew my mind, it was the first I had heard of it put so simply. I wanted to employ it immediately but ran into some snags. First; how do you accurately determine EV each time. I guess with trial and error but with 120 film this would get expensive quick. Second; does this equation only produce what a light meter would assume is middle grey (right exposure)? If that is the case I could stop down or open up for different lighting scenarios that I was going for.

Anyone have any thought? If you are looking for a good "EV" chart this site is great http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

Thanks in advance,
~m

The only way to accurately determine EV each time is by using a meter.
There is no way round that.

I always like the EV chart on the back of my old Rolleiflex. It seemed to cover just about all situations, time of day, and weather conditions. I like it, thought it was pretty neat, and always used a meter.

Vaughn

I'm sure this would come close to working in a pinch, but old hand-held meters are selling for less than a beer these days. I don't know why anyone would want to go through a maths exam every time they shoot for the sake of a few bucks.

Although being able to guestimate exposure is a useful skill to learn in case of emergancy, not using a light meter is foolish because It will cost more than It's worth in incorrect exposures, wasted film, and dissapointment .

When I use a meterless camera for hand-held snapshooting, I usually don't bother with a separate meter any more - I just set the exposure from experience. I instinctually and continually adjust the shutter and aperture as I move in and out of different lighting conditions, so that when I see something I want to take a picture of, I'm almost always ready and it's just focus, shoot and move on. No standing around and fussing. It's very liberating to work that way, and it also makes one much less obtrusive.

I get away with it partly because I've been playing with cameras for a long time, partly because I'm using print films that have substantial exposure latitude, and partly because I don't mind the quality tradeoff that arises with modest departures from technically optimal exposures with most print films. Even with long experience, though, I'd be a bit leery of trying it with slide film, which has narrow latitude at best and a correspondingly more severe quality tradeoff.

There's no need to get tangled in elaborate EV/TV/LV calculations. One knows from experience that a certain type of light calls for, say, 1/60 at f/8 with an ISO 400 color negative film - and from there it's simple to swap aperture changes against shutter speed changes to favor depth of field or cope with moving subjects, as needed.

But the one thing that is necessary is to have enough experience to judge exposure in the first place. If you don't have that, then IMO you're better off starting with a meter. But don't just transfer settings mechanically to the camera - pay close attention to what the meter is telling you and think about how it relates to lighting conditions. What happens as the sky fills with clouds? When you move in and out of shadow on a sunny day? On an overcast day? And so on. Eventually you'll know what to do even without a meter.

It does help to standardize on one or a few films of comparable speed, so that in a given light you think directly of the appropriate shutter / aperture settings and don't have to take an extra step to think about how many stops to compensate up or down.

mr. mohaupt said:

I know there are a lot of threads on this but I have not seen on with what I am looking for.

Anyone have any thought? If you are looking for a good "EV" chart this site is great http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

Thanks in advance,
~m

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This is about the stupidest thing I have ever encountered. Of course, some people choose to complexify anything. Buy one of his Westons (assuming they are working properly) and use it. The Weston exposure meter dial is the key to understanding exposure.

It is one way to do it, and once you have those numbers memorized, it might move pretty quickly. However, I think thinking of things as a certain number of stops away from an EV 15 incident exposure is just as quick, if not quicker. I can't believe he didn't just teach you the sunny 16 method. What he said sounds overly complex, and does nothing for you that the basic sunny 16 method does not. It makes you do everything that you have to do with sunny 16, but adds extra steps, extra memorization, and all to arrive at the SAME RESULT. You have to memorize which shutter speeds correspond to which time values, and which f stops correspond to which f stops. More crap to remember, as if there isn't enough already. Since you have to estimate an EV anyhow, it is much easier to just view things as adjustments off of an assumed EV 15 incident value, AKA Basic Daylight Exposure (BDE), or sunny 16.

But worse than that, I am quite interested where you picked up the little gem that "landscapes are about 10" all the time. This is as ignorant as it gets. The EV depends on...well, the EV: the amount of light; not the type of photograph!!! How could the EV possibly be the same for every landscape or every portrait, or every any other "type" of photograph?

Not only that, but that value is just dead wrong for a sunny 16 condition. Try EV 10 reflected value in the shadows in BDE conditions, not EV 10 incident value. Expose for EV 10 incident, and you have overexposed your shot by as many as five stops in certain conditions.

The key is not knowing how to arrive at an exposure given a known EV. That is easy once you know just one exposure that corresponds to one EV when using one EI (e.g. '125 at f/16 at EI 100 at EV 15). The key is being able to accurately assume that EV; not knowing how to take an EV and turn it into an exposure setting.

Do yourself a favor and buy an old Brockway or Norwood Director; the predecessors to the modern-day Sekonic Studio Deluxe. Mine is 55 years old, is DEAD ON PERFECT, and cost me under $10 shipped with all three slides, all three attachments, and a case, in near perfect condition. (I have since taken care of the condition by shattering the clear casing on one edge, but it still works perfectly.) A lot of three more meters for parts (I wanted backup hi-slides and cases) ran me $40 shipped. These three meters all read one stop under my main meter due to yellowed domes (but work perfectly when these domes are replaced with the white dome from the main meter). With slide number one in place, and shutter speed set 1/3 over film speed (e.g. '500 when using a 400 film), point your dome directly at the main light source, stop down two stops past the direct-reading aperture value and shoot for a good average exposure. Sunny 16 conditions cause the meter to read f/8 with slide 1 in, thus use f/16. You also know that when the meter reads f/8 with slide 1 in, it is reading EV 15. (BTW, I have NEVER seen an incident meter reading past EV 15; even at White Sands Nat'l Monument on a day that could not have been any more clear.) There is far less chance to screw up your exposures with one of these than with a reflected meter.

If you fear the used meter route, the brand spanking new Sekonic Studio Deluxe - so damned good that it has been practically unchanged for 60 years and is still perhaps the best [non-flash] light meter in the world - is under $200 from any pro camera shop.

Just get a meter and be done with it - as every professional photographer in the world uses one to this day (either internally or external). Just believe me it is impossible to get decent exposures without one - as every professional photographer knows.
Anyone who says you can get away without one is giving you very bad advice.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

Using the EV Index is fantastic advice. Using it with the Zone System is even better. But a house built on the sand will fall. Why build your EV house on the sand of guesstimation? Build it on the rock of a good light meter. Ansel Adams actually said in 'The Negative' that in order to use TZS and the EV Index with any accuracy you need to have a goo light meter.

That being said, a light meter is not necessary. Photographers who have been in the game for a long time can get is real close based on experience with their own gear and film. But every one of them probably still has a light meter close by.

Mr. Mohaupt,

I think you should buy a meter. There's a lot of good ones on the market that will get the job done that don't cost too much.

CPorter said:

Mr. Mohaupt,

I think you should buy a meter. There's a lot of good ones on the market that will get the job done that don't cost too much.

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For cripes' sake, get a meter. Honestly, if you start using a meter for every shot, shortly you'll have a highly tuned sense of the exposure and the meter will move to being a confirmation of your instinct and a tool upon which to do 'what-if' calculations.

I use a meter about 60% of the time. The other 40% I use this method which is based on a film datasheet for exposure.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=402708&postcount=65

I'd estimate my underexposure rate to be much less than 5%.

Well, it also depends on what you shoot -- if everything is outdoors in the daytime, you can probably do pretty well with Sunny 16. My first few years back in the 19-ought-50s were done without a meter (it was buy a meter or buy film) -- I even shot some good ol' ASA 10 Kodachrome! There are charts that expand on what they print on the film boxes for bright sun, hazy sun, etc. all the way down to indoor stuff. But it's pretty difficult to describe the zillions of artificial lighting possibilities with any precision using text. The math gyrations described in the OP seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

That said, I would seldom consider shooting today without using a meter, just to minimize the expense of film waste if nothing else. But thinking back, it was surprising how one could intuitively look over a scene and say "hmm, a bit shady over there, think I'll add two stops" and get some fairly impressive results.

DaveT

I am surprised that my tread created so much noise. First off I have been shooting photos long enough to know the "Sunny 16" rule but am always curious about other methods. I also do not own a stand alone meter, no, but all of my other cameras have one.

As for not using a light meter, wasn't it Mr. Adams that shot Moon over New Mexico WITHOUT a meter? He knew one specific (exposure) value and was able to produce a stunning image? And what about Hasselblad's? I have used one, I am sure most of you have, they have EV values printed right on the lens that do the same thing.

I recently was at the library reading Jack Coote's book Monochrome Darkroom Practices and when discussing the history of photography it was not so much of an art and more of a scientific in a sense that they were trying to find less rules of thumbs and more exact ways of figuring exposure based on light values. What has changed since then? Are we not trying to capture light and then mix up chemicals to get an image we desire, art and science combined? All of you that are against this system probably don't realize that you use it every time you go shooting photos. All of you that mentioned the "Sunny 16" rule this is the same thing but gives you the freedom of choosing a shutter speed or an aperture value that you want with out having to step through each setting.


What I have gathered is that everyone uses a meter (understandable) and nobody else would ever dare not use one unless in a pinch. I figured that this method would be great provided you bracket your exposure one stop each direction. Sometimes I just want to run out with my camera set the proper settings based on the image that I want and shoot. Be liberated from having to carry excess gear. *Shrugs* I guess its NOT possible (being smart here) Next time I want to run out and shoot photos I will have to either A.) purchase a meter or B.) carry another body with a similar field of view lens.


~m

DWThomas said:

That said, I would seldom consider shooting today without using a meter, just to minimize the expense of film waste if nothing else. But thinking back, it was surprising how one could intuitively look over a scene and say "hmm, a bit shady over there, think I'll add two stops" and get some fairly impressive results.

DaveT

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This is my point it is quite possible but I think light meters have made us all lazy, ME INCLUDED.



Lets look at another example

Does a violinist need the latest and greatest electric violin with auto tuner and all the gizmos attached to compose a symphony? Or does he/she just need a good ear and the ability to make those sounds with even just a basic violin.


~m

I recently was at the library reading Jack Coote's book Monochrome Darkroom Practices and when discussing the history of photography it was not so much of an art and more of a scientific in a sense that they were trying to find less rules of thumbs and more exact ways of figuring exposure based on light values. What has changed since then?

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They were succesfull. Meters have gotten better.


The EV values on some cameras help setting and changing apertures and shutterspeeds.
And they are a real pleasure to use, provided you have a meter that displays EVs (most do).
Once the EV is set, you can select either aperture or shutterspeed at will, without having to worry much about the other.

But ease of setting, and knowing what to set to get proper exposure are two different things completely.

Graham.b said:

What is proper settings

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Guess thats where the art form comes in. Do you want to have a shallow depth of field, do you want motion blur, etc. Ultimately I would say the proper setting would be a properly exposed negative.

Graham its probably another thread but what were your findings when using a light meter verses the in camera one? I sure that greatly depends on the camera and the meter but if you could generalize.


~m

I have just been playing with the digi in doors. On a reflective the camera come's a lot brighter, loss of shadow. On the ambi side the meter won all the time.
But as you say what is it we all look for is not for other's. Then there is how you read the meter and use it. You may think the reading is to short and you may want to alter it. It save's all those number's in the head, dial in less EV/LW and re/calculate.

Graham

And that raises another point about photography. It is by far and large very personal in its application as are most other things we do for the pure enjoyment. Sure there are times where accuracy is of the essence (job, project, what have you). But it is totally up to you what you want to do for your photography or what you want it to do for you. There are times where I don't even carry a light meter. There are times where I tote around a matchbox with two 35mm film cannisters taped to either side of it. There are times where I meter a tree in a field ad nauseum because that is when I have a particular vision or mood that I want translated through the neg.

Wow. So many harsh responses...I am disappointed.

First off, Welcome. This place is usually friendlier than this.

The method mentioned by the OP is quite correct and is in fact exactly what all modern light meters do....except that most modern light meters are not "stuck" at ISO 100 film speed. It is also exactly what the Sunny-16 rule is base dupon...excatly.
The system is very valid and works. I use it all the time - however, as mentioned, after a while, you just develop a kind of intuitive sense for what Ev a scene is...

Incidently, the full equation is:

S + L = A + T

where:
S is the film speed value,
L is the light value
A is the aperature value and...
T is the Time (shutter speed) value.

notice for example that
S= 5 for ISO 100 film, A = 8 for f/16 and T = 7 for 1/125

so, solving for L we find that L = 10. The light value of a sunny day is about 10EV.

Exactly as the OP said (and Fred Picker too. Picker's only simplification was pinning everything to ISO 100 film speed- but, he said the same thing).

This is nothing new BTW. Pick up any decent amatuer photo book published prior to about 1970 and you will likely find at least a brief description. Often there wer also tables for compensations (for time of year and latitude for example).

Hi All,

The italian firm Ferrania offered to its clients in the 1960s a very useful little gizmo called "exposure table" (rough translation from italian). I have one of these. It is 5 by 8 cm aluminum sheet with a ritating disc. Two criteria only must be taken intoo account to determine exposure speed and aperture:
1. light conditions (bright sun/sun/cloudy sky-sun partly hidden/Cloudy-winter time/Dark sky)
2. Subject (dark/normal/light)

There's a one-stop between each light condition and the same one-stop between the three subject densities.

The standart exposure couple speed-aperture for a normal subject is: 1/250 and f4 for a cloudy sky-sun partly hidden.

You just memorise that and you open one stop or close one stop for darker or lighter subjects or, the other way round for darker or brighter light conditions.

All of these for a 100 ISO film. Close one more stop for 200 ISO etc.

Simple as that.

I remember Cartier-Bresson once reluctantly answered a question about how he calculated exposure when taking pictures with his Leica M 3 (no internal meter). He actually used this technique, constantly looking up at the sky, or checking the density of shade, etc.

Let's not forget that negative films have a good acceptance of over or under exposure anyway... to some extent.

Hope this helps.

This all comes down to precision, I think.
Yes, if you know what you are doing, it is possible to get by without a meter if you don't mind losing your shadow detail sometimes and don't mind losing your highlights sometimes. And some of this loss may be dealt with by bracketing exposures. In any event, it is of course possible to make art with blown highlights or inpenetrable shadows - depends what look you want or are prepared to accept or what works with your subject.
However, if you want true control of your exposures, and don't want to waste film bracketing every shot, use a meter - in-camera or hand-held.
As pointed out by QG, the EV scale on a Hasselblad lens is a lovely thing. But you still have to get your EV from somewhere. Guess it if you want, once you have the experience to do that with at least a bit of reliability. But I much prefer my meter if I have the choice.
Ian

mr. mohaupt said:

As for not using a light meter, wasn't it Mr. Adams that shot Moon over New Mexico WITHOUT a meter?

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As the story goes, because he couldn't find the thing at the time he made that photograph. He wasn't trying to prove anything.