Exposure compesation EV +/- HELP!

stevco · Nov 13, 2009

Hello,
I own Minolta maxxum 600si film slr camera, and i wanted to shoot long exposures using B&W Ilford FP4 plus 125 iso film. With normal exposure, on Aperture Priority, after sunset i was getting like 5 to 10 seconds max at f/22. I found out that there is a ring EV +/-, so i turnet the ring to +3 (it is 'plus' 3, not 'minus', and that confused me) and that allowed me to have exposure from 20 to 30 seconds.

My question is: Does this change on EV with +3 have familiar with PUSH or PULL development process, so i will need to make the development longer for 3 stops or shorter? Did i decrease the sensitivity of the film for 3 stops or increase it?

And, does this affect the final image on quality, maybe the picture will be underexposed or overexposed?

I have a picture also, this is from the model Dynax but it's the same Dead Link Removed
I pushed the ring to +3 (it is on the right side, above the name 'Dynax')

I will be very glad if someone help me!
Stevco

keithwms · Nov 13, 2009

EV+3 means you effectively rated the film 3 stops slower. So you'd develop it for 25-32 or so. In other words, you'll need to do shorter development, since your film is actually three stops faster than how you effectively rated it.

The massive dev chart will give you times for 32 or so.... probably fine.

Q.G. · Nov 13, 2009

You have overexposed the film by 3 stops.
You haven't decreased or increased the film's sensitivity, but exposed it as if it was 3 stops less sensitive than it is.

So you need to pull the film, i.e. develop shorter.

stevco · Nov 13, 2009

First, thank you for your really fast response.

So i should tell to my developer that i set the EV on +3, (or overexposed the film by 3 stops) so he will make the development shorter. That like the film was on iso 3 times slower that 125, right?

I have another question on this case too. Tonight i want to go to a little concert in a small club. I bought color film Kodak kodacolor 400 ISO. So if this on a larger aperture on my Sigma 28-70mm lens (which is 3.5 on 28mm and 4.5 on 70mm) will be still slow boost the exposure on -1 or -2, that would make like the film is 800 with ev -1, and 1600 with ev -2, so i will have to make the development longer for 1,2 or 3 times, to give me normal exposure.

Does this affect the quality on the final images. Any color mistakes or something..?

Chris Nielsen · Nov 13, 2009

You'll have more luck recovering the underexposed part when you get the prints done than trying to find someone who will push C-41. I've accidentally underexposed Superia 400 by a stop or so and it looked just fine in small prints when the lady doing the prints at my lab increased the brightness. I was expecting bad things but it seemed to work fine. Pushing is another story. I guess pro labs might offer that but I've not yet met a minilab that is willing to do that. Black and white is a totally different scenario for pushing etc

keithwms · Nov 13, 2009

stevco said:
That like the film was on iso 3 times slower that 125, right?

Three stops slower than 125, not three times slower But your developer should understand if you just say "pull three stops" or "N-3."

I would actually be tempted to pull only one stop i.e. develop for ISO 64 or so. Since you went to long exposures I have concerns about underexposure because of reciprocity failure. By dev'ing for 64 you will give yourself a 1-2 stop safety margin of overexposure. With neg film you almost always want to err on the side of overexposure, not under. I am also not quite sure what a three stop pull will do to your contrast; maybe one is better for this first trial.

Next time consider a neutral density filter. Mucking with your ratings and development times isn't advisable if all you want is long exposures but no change in overall contrast.

Q.G. · Nov 13, 2009

keithwms said:
I would actually be tempted to pull only two stops i.e. develop for ISO 64 or so.

That's one stop, not two.

eddym · Nov 13, 2009

stevco said:
Hello,
I own Minolta maxxum 600si film slr camera, and i wanted to shoot long exposures using B&W Ilford FP4 plus 125 iso film.

May I ask why you wanted to do that? What effect were you trying to accomplish?

eddym · Nov 13, 2009

stevco said:
I have another question on this case too. Tonight i want to go to a little concert in a small club. I bought color film Kodak kodacolor 400 ISO. So if this on a larger aperture on my Sigma 28-70mm lens (which is 3.5 on 28mm and 4.5 on 70mm) will be still slow boost the exposure on -1 or -2, that would make like the film is 800 with ev -1, and 1600 with ev -2, so i will have to make the development longer for 1,2 or 3 times, to give me normal exposure.

Does this affect the quality on the final images. Any color mistakes or something..?

Yes, this will definitely affect the quality of the negatives and resulting prints. Expect lots of grain, muddy shadows, and loss of resolution. I really don't recommend it, even if you push the film. C41 film does not push well.

keithwms · Nov 13, 2009

Q.G. said:
That's one stop, not two.

Ah yes, sorry. I will correct it in my post above.

In any case he will probably want a stop or two of overexposure, I am worried about reciprocity effects being of that order.

Denis R · Nov 13, 2009

EV vs. ISO etc.

does your camera allow for manual ISO?

if not, refer to (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

use a ND filter and/or polarizer to decrease incoming light

Aperture Priority, after sunset i was getting like 5 to 10 seconds max at f/22.

use MANUAL next time

did you need max. depth of field, or were you trying to reduce light coming in??

if you don't like what "normal" is, adjust EV to your preference

perhaps you should explain the conditions of after dark

I have used 15 minute f16 ISO100 with full moon for landscape shots, and they came out fine

stevco · Nov 14, 2009

Denis R said:
does your camera allow for manual ISO?

if not, refer to (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

use a ND filter and/or polarizer to decrease incoming light

Aperture Priority, after sunset i was getting like 5 to 10 seconds max at f/22.

use MANUAL next time

did you need max. depth of field, or were you trying to reduce light coming in??

if you don't like what "normal" is, adjust EV to your preference

perhaps you should explain the conditions of after dark

I have used 15 minute f16 ISO100 with full moon for landscape shots, and they came out fine

I was using f/22 (max) both for getting sharpnes on the foreground (rocks and bridges, i was shooting by the lake) and i was using Ap just to be quicker, that's all.

The sun set's down aproximatelly after 16:20h, after that there is some 20 to 30 minutes before darkness. Before 16:20h i was getting like 5 sec (depends on the metering, i was metering the water), some 10-15 minutes after i was getting 15 to 25 seconds, in the end 30 sec. (this is when i used EV +3).

I am planning to get some (G)ND filter. And with the filter, after 30 sec my camera has BULB option, so if filter alows me let's say 20 seconds plus, then if i shoot 10-20 minutes after sunset and i get 20 seconds i should press my BULB buton for (pros. 20 + 20) 40 seconds to get normal exposition (with normal EV)?

But i don't want to shoot more than 30 seconds with film because of reciprocity failure.

John Koehrer · Nov 14, 2009

With a tripod?

stevco · Nov 14, 2009

Christopher Walrath · Nov 14, 2009

stevco, color film generally doesn't react as well to longer exposure as do black and white films. The color suffers most in my experience and grain can grow to the size of golf balls with no problem. A tripod helps a little. But past a point the Law of Reciprocity breaks down, thus 'Reciprocity Failure'. The partially exposed silver halides can revert themselves somewhat making them require even MORE exposure to do the same job as what your meter suggests. I five second exposure could require 10 seconds of exposure instead. A 10 second exposure could require close to a minute to expose. Consult your film's literature to determine what effects long exposure time will have. But before buying more gear I have to ask three questions.

If you change your shutter speed from 1/250 to 1/125 and want the same exposure, should you adjust the aperture from, for example, f/5.6 to which of the following? f/4 or f/8

Which aperture setting provides more light, f/4 or f/16?

Which of the following combinations is EV14? 1/1000 @ f/2.8 1/500 @ f/5.6 1/250 @ f/11

If you answered questions one, two and three correctly (1/500 @ f/5.6) then these are basic questions you are asking and you should probably just brush up on your camera manual and exposure adjustments. Even I can sometimes confuse myself.

If not . . .

. . . and you answered questions one and two correctly (f/4) then I would suggest a little bolstering of your photographic knowledge, reading a copy of Bryan Peterson's 'Understanding Exposure' or Ansel Adams' 'The Negative' to make your basic knowledge a little more solid before buying more gear.

If not . . .

. . . and you answered question one correctly (f/8) then I would suggest picking up a copy of the little yellow Kodak book which gives the basics of exposure and adjustments that can be made on the average camera. 'Kodak Tips For 35MM Photography' or some such and work your way up.

If not . . .

. . . please leave the camera gear website immediately. Get started learning the basics and keep asking us questions.

stevco · Nov 15, 2009

Christopher,
In my question i wrote that i used black and white film, and i'm aware of reciprocity failure (but i have never test it), and also aware of color problems with color films.

I know that you didn't had a will to offend me, but i constantly learn photography and i'm covered with the basics that you mentioned.
I exploring more the film photography and its problems and highlights.

I want to ask you another question on this term:

I know that with longer exposures the film becomes less sensitive to light, so, i exposed the film for 10, 15 to 30 seconds (the most of the pictures of the film). That's different exposures. So, with 30 seconds exposure i expose the film to get normal exposure for like 1/4 or 1/2? Is that like i had 15 seconds exposure.

If i pull the film for 3 stops, i would probably get overexposed photos?

Christopher Walrath said:
stevco, color film generally doesn't react as well to longer exposure as do black and white films. The color suffers most in my experience and grain can grow to the size of golf balls with no problem. A tripod helps a little. But past a point the Law of Reciprocity breaks down, thus 'Reciprocity Failure'. The partially exposed silver halides can revert themselves somewhat making them require even MORE exposure to do the same job as what your meter suggests. I five second exposure could require 10 seconds of exposure instead. A 10 second exposure could require close to a minute to expose. Consult your film's literature to determine what effects long exposure time will have. But before buying more gear I have to ask three questions.

If you change your shutter speed from 1/250 to 1/125 and want the same exposure, should you adjust the aperture from, for example, f/5.6 to which of the following? f/4 or f/8

Which aperture setting provides more light, f/4 or f/16?

Which of the following combinations is EV14? 1/1000 @ f/2.8 1/500 @ f/5.6 1/250 @ f/11

If you answered questions one, two and three correctly (1/500 @ f/5.6) then these are basic questions you are asking and you should probably just brush up on your camera manual and exposure adjustments. Even I can sometimes confuse myself.

If not . . .

. . . and you answered questions one and two correctly (f/4) then I would suggest a little bolstering of your photographic knowledge, reading a copy of Bryan Peterson's 'Understanding Exposure' or Ansel Adams' 'The Negative' to make your basic knowledge a little more solid before buying more gear.

If not . . .

. . . and you answered question one correctly (f/8) then I would suggest picking up a copy of the little yellow Kodak book which gives the basics of exposure and adjustments that can be made on the average camera. 'Kodak Tips For 35MM Photography' or some such and work your way up.

If not . . .

. . . please leave the camera gear website immediately. Get started learning the basics and keep asking us questions.

Christopher Walrath · Nov 16, 2009

Wirelessly posted (BBBold: BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.297 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

I think I read you here. If you have different length exposures and expect reciprocity failure across the varying exposures then you would have prints with varying degrees of over/under exposure with roll films. To cite your examples of 10, 15 and 30 seconds. If you pull three stops in processing (which sounds excessive) with these times, your exposures would probably be over exposed somewhere between one and two stops depending on the exposure given. The 10-15 second range would probably warranty pulling one stop and the 30's about two stops. If you pull for about a stop and a half that would probably be your happy medium.

No offense intended. Just trying to guage your knowledge. I hope this helped.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 16, 2009

<quietly> Just a moment: a small aside here:
What concerns me is this:
"i was getting like 5 to 10 seconds max at f/22."

At f22, I strongly suspect diffraction will have a noticeable presence, quite apart from a loss of valuable light; a sunset landscape does not need f22.
So reduce f/n to allow more light in thus shorter exposure. AND, nurture good habits: scrutinise camera controls carefully before shooting.

Denis R · Nov 16, 2009

push-normal-pull

play along with me for this example, as I happened to have the data sheet for t-max RS in my pocket

also, this example uses t-max P3200 with 3,200 as "normal"

for normal exposure set ISO on camera to 3,200 and develop for 11m @ 72f

for pull 2 exposure set ISO on camera to 800 and develop for 7.5m @ 72f

for push 2 exposure set ISO on camera to 12,500 and develop for 14m @ 72f

as I have said before, leave EV alone unless you do not like the way your camera meters "normally"

read the data sheet!

Christopher Walrath · Nov 16, 2009

Wirelessly posted (BBBold: BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.297 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

You're right. It's all in there.

Exposure compesation EV +/- HELP!

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency