Expose reel to Photoflo (or similar), or not?

jay moussy · Sep 26, 2021

I finally broke down and got a Photoflo equivalent, the Legacy Pro wetting agent.

Reading here and there, I see some are reluctant, or had bad experiences with plastic reels exposed to the Kodak product, likely and older stock.

What to think?

BrianShaw · Sep 26, 2021

I use photo-flow as final rinse with film in plastic reels. Generally at recommended dilution; sometimes at less than that. After removing film, wash well and dry. No problems.

foc · Sep 26, 2021

I have used Ilfotol wetting solution, at the recommended dilution, for many years and never had a problem.
As BrianShaw said above, wash well and dry.
I think most problems with wetting agents is that people can add too much.

BradS · Sep 26, 2021

I've been using Patterson reels and Kodak PhotoFlo (according to mfgr's directions) for some 40 years or so but always remove the film from the reels before dipping it in the PhotoFlo. Dipping the plastic reels in the PhotoFlo isn't really a big issue but it does, in my experience, necessitate more frequent and aggressive reel cleaning efforts.

jay moussy · Sep 26, 2021

Best, or acceptable way to wash reels?

I only rinse them, but this has been only 1 1/2 years of use.

BradS · Sep 26, 2021

jay moussy said:
Best, or acceptable way to wash reels?

I only rinse them, but this has been only 1 1/2 years of use.

If the film is removed from the reels before PhotoFlo, I don't really do anything to clean the reels. Just rinse and let air dry....that's with normal Kodak chemistry (eg, D-76, Indicator Stop Bath and Rapid Fixer).

BrianShaw · Sep 26, 2021

Hot tap water rinse; air dry and follow-up with a warm hair blower after I think its fully dry. On rare occasion I also scrub the reels with a fine soft brush (like a toothbrush) just as a precaution.

glbeas · Sep 26, 2021

Every once in a while a good idea to take an old toothbrush after the reel with a drop or two of dish soap to get any accumulated gunk out. That should help film loading efforts.

Pieter12 · Sep 26, 2021

FWIW, Jobo recommends not immersing their plastic reels in wetting agents.

AgX · Sep 26, 2021

I see from the point of contamination no real reason not to use the final bath with surfactant on the reels.
The surfactant is watersoluable, even remaining droplets would at the next run (developer) be diluted by several magnitudes.

But as the reel typically is used in a dried state, some argue that, after omitting rinsing the reel with plain water, out of the dried state a film of surfactant might built up and grow over runs. Finally hampering sliding new film into the reel. Others argue that such build-up actually is residue of gelatin, and thus the reels regularly have to be cleaned with hot water or with a strong alkali.
One may try oneself on a sheet of glass whether the used surfactant might build up if not rinsed off.

But there may be a approach where the surfactant is used in a seperate container nonetheless:
depending on type of reel used and ones manner of working, one may open the reel and let the film fall into a container with the final bath. Thus not out of an issue of possible contamination, but out of an issue of better handling of the film when taken it up for hanging.

abruzzi · Sep 26, 2021

I use very hot water to rinse the reel once the film is out. I find if I don’t do it now and again, the film is harder to load and binds up. Ive never had residual photo flo affect developing though.

Duceman · Sep 26, 2021

BrianShaw said:
I use photo-flow as final rinse with film in plastic reels. Generally at recommended dilution; sometimes at less than that. After removing film, wash well and dry. No problems.

Same here. I even use it with color negative film as well. Never had any problems.

MattKing · Sep 26, 2021

The other variable relates to the water you use both to make up the working solution Photo-flo and clean the reels.
I find it easy to take the film out of the reels and put the film into a separate container of Photo-flo working solution, so I do.
The reels are then thoroughly rinsed in hot water - both steel and plastic - and then air dried.
I also toothbrush scrub the reels - but not very frequently.
The other thing I try to do is move the film in the reels part way through the fixing stage, in case the film is adhering to the reels at some spot. Usually it isn't.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 26, 2021

jay moussy said:
I finally broke down and got a Photoflo equivalent, the Legacy Pro wetting agent.

Reading here and there, I see some are reluctant, or had bad experiences with plastic reels exposed to the Kodak product, likely and older stock.

What to think?

I have used Photoflow for decades without any problems but. I wash the film in the development tank. So, the real as well cleaned after every processing.

GRHazelton · Sep 26, 2021

In addition to rinsing the reels with warm or hot water after Photoflo, I occasionally run my Paterson reels through our dishwasher; so far no problems

Lachlan Young · Sep 26, 2021

The problems seemed to relate to the old C-41 stabiliser etc that contained formalin. Not thoroughly washing reels after taking the film off them may cause problems as some wetting aid components can have (and are used within emulsions and some developers as such) quite strong development acceleration properties.

MattKing · Sep 26, 2021

GRHazelton said:
In addition to rinsing the reels with warm or hot water after Photoflo, I occasionally run my Paterson reels through our dishwasher; so far no problems

I too have done this successfully, but be sure that you don't use any rinse aid in the dishwasher!

AgX · Sep 26, 2021

Lachlan Young said:
The problems seemed to relate to the old C-41 stabiliser etc that contained formalin. Not thoroughly washing reels after taking the film off them may cause problems as some wetting aid components can have (and are used within emulsions and some developers as such) quite strong development acceleration properties.

But still there would be that huge dilution effect on any droplets, or rather fluid film that remains on reels and tank in case of not rinsing them.
(I had discussions at an industry R&D lab on the alledged effect of surfactant residue on processing in a special developing process, but was not shown proof...)

But as said, cleaning the reels and tank under running water should be no problem for most of us..
And for those in doubt a 2nd container neither.

Sirius Glass · Sep 26, 2021

Per Jobo instructions, I remove the film from the reels before immersing them in PhotoFlo.

removed account4 · Sep 26, 2021

I've never heard of problems like that with photoflo, jay. I think a lot of problems happen because people add more than a few drops to the tank or tray where their film has been processed. You only need a few drops. And then because they don't wash off their reels with super hot water. If you don't want to put your reels in the PF. you can always carefully remove the wet film from the reels, put out a tray of water with a few drops of PF ( or whatever wetting agent you are using ) and see saw your film through it from end to end, like people used to process those giant rolls of non panchro film.

Good luck with your adventure!
John

jay moussy · Sep 26, 2021

Two 120 reels done today, good results, need a better method to measure my drop. or drops!

After the three-step Ilford Method rinse, took reel off tank into wetting agent 600 ml vessel, wiggled a bit, and drained.
Could I make the third Ilford step my wetting agent rinse, perhaps?

MattKing · Sep 26, 2021

Use it in addition to, not instead of each part of your film washing regime. The Ilford washing approach is already at the edge of being insufficient.
And in case you want another approach to dealing with the measurement issue: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/

pentaxuser · Sep 26, 2021

I thought that AgX's first post summed up the pros and cons very well. Frankly if you can use wetting agent while the film is in the reel then this is more convenient and uses less wetting agent than removing the film and then passing it through a separate bath. If wetting agent does leave a residue on the reel then it's a balance between being careful and cautious and taking the time to remove the film from the reel and using a separate bath and leaving the film on the reel but having to take the time to scrub the reel afterwards to be sure that it is clean

I now intend to be bold and change my method. I'll use wetting agent on the film while on the reel and see how many films i can do this way before I feel a stickiness on the reels that affects loading the next film. If it is several films then on balance an occasional scrub might be worthwhile

pentaxuser

AgX · Sep 26, 2021

jnantz said:
I've never heard of problems like that with photoflo, jay.

There were explicite warnings. Except for one case the seeming idea behind these warnungs was, that residual surfactant might make the deveopler bath foam.

Maris · Sep 26, 2021

The same Paterson reels and Photoflo for decades ... no problems at all.
I use much less Photoflo than the official recommendation, more like 1+1000 rather than 1+200, and it foams up well enough and does the job.
After the film is hung up I go back and rinse the reels by agitating them vigorously in the open top developing tank through several changes of water. When absolutely no stable foam forms I know both the tank and the reels are free of Photoflo residues. Photoflo is a foam stabiliser even at parts per million level so ... no foam = no Photoflo.

Expose reel to Photoflo (or similar), or not?

jay moussy

BrianShaw

foc

BradS

jay moussy

BradS

BrianShaw

glbeas

Pieter12

AgX

abruzzi

Duceman

MattKing

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RalphLambrecht

GRHazelton

Lachlan Young

MattKing

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AgX

Sirius Glass

removed account4

jay moussy

MattKing

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pentaxuser

AgX

Maris

Expose reel to Photoflo (or similar), or not?

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