"Explanation Fee" for tyre-kickers...

CGW · Dec 17, 2011

Mark Minard said:
Exactly. And what happens if you "stump the schmuck" behind the counter? Do you get your 30 bucks back?

Look, tire-kicking is even killing many US camera stores' former nemesis, BestBuy, which has become the "showroom" for Amazon.

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2011

CGW said:
Look, tire-kicking is even killing many US camera stores' former nemesis, BestBuy, which has become the "showroom" for Amazon.

What comes around; goes around!

Instant Karma will get you!

LarryP · Dec 17, 2011

When I moved to Charleston there was one really well stocked camera store with ok staff and an owner who really knew his stuff on gear and film, not the cheapest place but you knew you could get good answers if you had questions. I made a point giving him my film and developing trade and bought some gear from him just so I could ask the odd question and very rarely handle something I wasn't sure about buying. He sold it some years back and the new owner turned it into a digi tourist photo store and I haven't set foot in the place since. My point being is if I'm just tire kicking gear I'm going to buy something to make up for the time the person had to spend with me.

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2011

LarryP said:
When I moved to Charleston there was one really well stocked camera store with ok staff and an owner who really knew his stuff on gear and film, not the cheapest place but you knew you could get good answers if you had questions. I made a point giving him my film and developing trade and bought some gear from him just so I could ask the odd question and very rarely handle something I wasn't sure about buying. He sold it some years back and the new owner turned it into a digi tourist photo store and I haven't set foot in the place since. My point being is if I'm just tire kicking gear I'm going to buy something to make up for the time the person had to spend with me.

+10 or +100

lxdude · Dec 17, 2011

LarryP said:
My point being is if I'm just tire kicking gear I'm going to buy something to make up for the time the person had to spend with me.

Same here.

Dshambli · Dec 17, 2011

I agree with wotalegend. When I was getting into photography, I went and bought a Manfrotto tripod with a video head. It's huge and inconvenient. I only got it because the girl at the store said it would be better for an slr than the smaller one they had.

benjiboy · Jan 4, 2012

It isn't just photographic stores that are suffering from "tyre kickers" but many others, if people continue to use bricks and mortar shops as demonstration venues for internet retailers the specialist bricks and mortarshops will disappear in a few years.

Helinophoto · Jan 4, 2012

I can understand why they have such a fee, because a lot of people use the stores as their little "review" site and then go on line to buy the product, time wasters really.

I usually buy stuff on line anyway,because it is cheaper.

If I am ever in a shop, then I know what I want and I know what it cost (and I usually know if they have it on stock as well). I ask for it, pay and leave.

It's frustrating having to stand there like an idiot for half an hour because some dimwit is holding up the sales person with stupid questions they could find the answer to trough 2 minutes on google anyway. Then they leave to buy the product from the Internet? It's the same thing going on in computer stores as well, I'm glad I don't work in a shop, because I would probably kick the customer out with a notice "Go search on the **** Intenet you time waster!"

I hope they burn in hell

BrianShaw · Jan 4, 2012

Helinophoto said:
I can understand why they have such a fee, because a lot of people use the stores as their little "review" site and then go on line to buy the product, time wasters really.

I usually buy stuff on line anyway,because it is cheaper.

If I am ever in a shop, then I know what I want and I know what it cost (and I usually know if they have it on stock as well). I ask for it, pay and leave.

It's frustrating having to stand there like an idiot for half an hour because some dimwit is holding up the sales person with stupid questions they could find the answer to trough 2 minutes on google anyway. Then they leave to buy the product from the Internet? It's the same thing going on in computer stores as well, I'm glad I don't work in a shop, because I would probably kick the customer out with a notice "Go search on the **** Intenet you time waster!"

I hope they burn in hell

+1 (as they say). I don't bother "going shopping" anymore if I'm not ready to pay the money and buy the product. There is SO much info on the internet that I can often get better informed in 10 minutes on the internet than whatever it takes to drive to a shop and talk to their salesman. But I would kindly (or not so kindly) decline paying a "lookie-lou" fee and never return to a shop who tried charging that kind of fee even if they were the last brick-an-mortar shop on the face of the earth.

Just the other day I went to 2 local camera stores looking for a very specific product. At one shop they had related products but not the one that meets my needs. Since I was the only one in the store I did chat with the saleperson and in that discussion mentioned having bought something from a NYC mailorder shop. She rolled her eyes but when I asked if when they last had that product (film) she agreed that they haven't had it for a long time and proably will never have it again. At a second shop I found the item I needed and while paying asked the clerk several questions -- basically trying to determine what they stodked that I might need in the future. He was quite cooperative and at one point asked if I was just price shopping before going to the internet. He was quite happy to hear that his price was the same and I'd be buying from him in the future since sales tax balances the shipping costs... and even when shipping is free I'd rather help him stay in business if the product cost is approximately the same. He was very appreciative to hear that. I suppose he probably gets lots of folks looking for free product information and a free tutorial before going for a better price and lousy service at an internet "shop". This guy ahs a longstanding reputation as a grumpy curmudgeon... and I can't say I blame him if he sees too many people taking advantage of him like that.

BTW, when the grumpy curmudgeon helped me find the product I was looking for he specifically asked if I wanted to buy them. Trying to keep the spirit I grumpily responded "only if the price is right". So he was looking up the price and when he found it he asked if I still wanted to buy. Maybe I said "yes, ring it up" too quicklty because he asked what the internet retailers were charging... and maybe he would change the price. I think I saw a hint of a smile but can't be sure. So I told him (honestly) that his price was exactly $2 less than the internet retailer (manufacturer) on that item, but exactly $2 more on the second item I was buying. So we called it even and I completed the transaction. Total time in shop: 4.8 minutes. I'll be going back there!

benjiboy · Jan 27, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
What comes around; goes around!

Instant Karma will get you!

Bricks and mortar stores have always had the whip hand in the past, but now the World has changed on- line retailing has given the consumer that power, and they will exercise it unmercifully by taking advantage of being able to have the product demonstrated in a store then buying it on-line at the cheapest price, until the stores all close down in the next few years, "capitalism is savagery" as Karl Marx wrote.

vpwphoto · Jan 27, 2012

Snick... slightly off topic, but I drove 60 miles to a Leica dealer last week, and they said they had no Leica that I could handle, ("they were in a vault in the basement"). I persisted but was told they were all new in box, and no lens (not even used) in stock.
I suppose the only way to examine one was to say I would purchase it on the spot.

36cm2 · Jan 27, 2012

This thread has me wondering about APUG's (and other photo forums') role in the demise of retail photo stores. Has APUG's excellence as a meeting place for film photographers eclipsed the historical value of the local photo shop as an access point to experienced photographers, printers and technology gurus? Few retail stores retain expertise behind the counter and probably even fewer still serve as a hub of the local photographic community.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not just about money or business models. Part of the demise of retail photo outlets is a natural side effect (good or bad) of technological connectivity and the move to e-community. For the world of film photography, APUG has likely played a big role in that change.

Leo

Newt_on_Swings · Jan 27, 2012

I was at B&H like 2 months ago as I was in the area. Went to pick up some basic necessities (developers, rodinal and lpd) and on the whim decided I wanted to buy a soft release for a canon Demi half frame that had a terribly recessed shutter button.

After talking to and being misdirected by 3 sales associates around the store, I was told to look it up at their online site, which showed the product, but was told to order it online anyway as they didn't physically carry it. (still pay $5shipping for $2 product)

Oh btw their stock/product moving system lost my items and I had to stand at the help line and wait 35 minutes for them to find it. (it was misplaced on the wrong hook section, so it goes)

I would gladly go online and pay shipping the next time as their service is crap if you don't buy an expensive item and to avoid all of this hassle.

vpwphoto · Jan 27, 2012

@36cm2.
My handy local camera shop cut it's own throat... used to have a monthly account and I used to stack stuff up on the counter and pay on time every month, but they got rid of that because of a couple bad apples and said they had to be fair to "everyone".
Then they started classes on how to do your own "senior photos". ... might have been inevitable, but it pissed off us loyal pros that willingly paid a little extra rather than go mail order from NYC or Chicago.
Now I am thinking of becoming that "little camera hub" as the old one is almost dead and boring.

Worker 11811 · Jan 27, 2012

One thing that bugs the hell out of me is when I go to a retail store, looking for some item and the sales person says, "No, we don't have that but I can order it..."

My stock answer is, "Well, if I wanted to order something I would have saved myself a trip to the store, stayed home and ordered it from the internet!"

Seriously! I get in my car, brave the shopping mall traffic, spend the gas money and generally inconvenience myself in order that I can physically go into a store, speak to a human and see and touch the product I want to buy BEFORE I buy it! I will pay the extra premium in price an forgo the "online discounts" in favor of being able to inspect the merchandise and ask questions in advance of the sale. Besides, shipping charges usually make up for most if not all of those discounts anyway.

I am angered and disappointed when I go to a store and get that kind of canned response. It is retail stores that do this that are killing the retail market! Yes, WalMart and many of the other stores are taking a big bite out of local businesses but there are a lot of things that WalMart can't provide. You'd be hard pressed to find an employee at WalMart who knows anything about the products let alone who has two brain cells to rub together. Those who do know are so pressed for time that they can do little more than point toward the products on the shelves and say, "It's in aisle nine..."

What these "big box" retailers don't realize (or WANT to realize) is that 90% of the shopping experience is social.
It's about going to the store, talking to people and exchanging information. It's similar to the way guys used to hang out at the barber shop and shoot the bull. Maybe only half the guys in the shop wanted hair cuts. The rest were there to talk about last night's game on TV or what the politicians said in the newspaper. That is what made that barber's business! Most people didn't need to get a haircut every week but they did it anyway because they got to socialize with the shop owner and the other people who hung out there. This is one very important reason why stores like WalMart can be detrimental to a town. They eliminate the social structure.

The more I consider, the more I think there's wisdom in being Amish.
Okay, seriously, joking aside... The main reason the Amish don't use telephones is because they value the social relationships between family, friends and neighbors more than the convenience of talking, long distance, on the phone. It's not because they think that technology is somehow "evil." Instead, they believe that, if you want to talk to your neighbor, you should walk to his house, knock on the door and speak to him face-to-face and in person.

This shop in Australia that charges a fee to shop there has probably done so because they have lost touch with the social aspects of doing business with the public and are forced to resort to such tactics. The problem is that, in doing so, they drive themselves away from their customers and make the problem they face even WORSE, not better.

The most important things in life are your family, your friends and the people around you in your neighborhood.
If you take care of the people in your life, your business should follow. If your business is failing its because you're not taking care of the people in your life.

mdarnton · Jan 27, 2012

When I find a store of any type with great salespeople, I support it and them, and the opposite, too.

36cm2 · Jan 27, 2012

That social experience is what I'm getting at, Worker 11811. From the perspectives of expertise and breadth of personalities, sites like APUG crush the direct human "shoot the bull at the local film store" experience. Not saying it's good, just saying it's happened.

Worker 11811 · Jan 27, 2012

I just got a phone call from my local camera store. The guy called to tell me that he just got a new camera on consignment.
The last couple of times I was there, I was looking at the cameras in the consignment case and the guy remembered.

He called me up to tell me that he just got a complete 4x5 monorail camera with lens, film holders, case and even a pack of Polaroid film and a pack of Kodak sheet film. The whole outfit, including a case is offered for $400 and, because I go in there at least once or twice per month to buy something (even if it's just a 120 roll of Tri-X) he's will consider waiving the consignment fee. (Meaning, if I play my cards right, I can get it for even less.)

Do you think WalMart, B&H or Adorama could do that?
Nope!

vpwphoto · Jan 27, 2012

Retail is tough...
... I gave my local shop a mini-lecture that a store should be a store.
They no longer cary "clear" stop bath. But said they would order it.
I they said it would take 2 weeks. I told em Freestyle will have it to me is 2-3 days.
I don't expect them to have a Nikon 45mm PCE on the shelf, I do expect them to cary D-76, stop bath, and a variety of fixers.

benjiboy · Jan 27, 2012

Worker 11811 said:
One thing that bugs the hell out of me is when I go to a retail store, looking for some item and the sales person says, "No, we don't have that but I can order it..."

My stock answer is, "Well, if I wanted to order something I would have saved myself a trip to the store, stayed home and ordered it from the internet!"

Seriously! I get in my car, brave the shopping mall traffic, spend the gas money and generally inconvenience myself in order that I can physically go into a store, speak to a human and see and touch the product I want to buy BEFORE I buy it! I will pay the extra premium in price an forgo the "online discounts" in favor of being able to inspect the merchandise and ask questions in advance of the sale. Besides, shipping charges usually make up for most if not all of those discounts anyway.

I am angered and disappointed when I go to a store and get that kind of canned response. It is retail stores that do this that are killing the retail market! Yes, WalMart and many of the other stores are taking a big bite out of local businesses but there are a lot of things that WalMart can't provide. You'd be hard pressed to find an employee at WalMart who knows anything about the products let alone who has two brain cells to rub together. Those who do know are so pressed for time that they can do little more than point toward the products on the shelves and say, "It's in aisle nine..."

What these "big box" retailers don't realize (or WANT to realize) is that 90% of the shopping experience is social.
It's about going to the store, talking to people and exchanging information. It's similar to the way guys used to hang out at the barber shop and shoot the bull. Maybe only half the guys in the shop wanted hair cuts. The rest were there to talk about last night's game on TV or what the politicians said in the newspaper. That is what made that barber's business! Most people didn't need to get a haircut every week but they did it anyway because they got to socialize with the shop owner and the other people who hung out there. This is one very important reason why stores like WalMart can be detrimental to a town. They eliminate the social structure.

The more I consider, the more I think there's wisdom in being Amish.
Okay, seriously, joking aside... The main reason the Amish don't use telephones is because they value the social relationships between family, friends and neighbors more than the convenience of talking, long distance, on the phone. It's not because they think that technology is somehow "evil." Instead, they believe that, if you want to talk to your neighbor, you should walk to his house, knock on the door and speak to him face-to-face and in person.

This shop in Australia that charges a fee to shop there has probably done so because they have lost touch with the social aspects of doing business with the public and are forced to resort to such tactics. The problem is that, in doing so, they drive themselves away from their customers and make the problem they face even WORSE, not better.

The most important things in life are your family, your friends and the people around you in your neighborhood.
If you take care of the people in your life, your business should follow. If your business is failing its because you're not taking care of the people in your life.

The reason they don't have it in stock and "can order it for you" Randy is that as the economy gets tougher and tougher stores can't afford to keep large amounts stock on the shelves that isn't selling because they have to pay for their inventory on their shelves which is dead money and could be worth hundreds of thousands of £ or $ accruing no interest until it is sold, so they use the importers or wholesalers as a warehouse for the less popular items to save money and get them for customers on request, so they aren't carrying things in stock that aren't selling on a regular basis.

David Henderson · Jan 28, 2012

I'm with worker 11811. If a retailer isn't holding stock of what I want to buy or compare; if they can't talk about how it works and its good/bad points in a knowledgable and cogent fashion; and can't treat me nicely instead of viewing me as some inconvenience that's wasting their time, then for me it doesn't matter one jot whether they exist or not. It is for the retailer to use their ingenuity and business acumen to arrive at ways they can attract customers in a world where they are doomed to be more expensive. It isn't for the customer to forgive them their failures. If the retailer thinks he can do that whilst offering worse service, less information, less stock, and worse prices, then best of luck with that.

Meanwhile it was a telephone /internet photographic seller who maybe ten years ago realised in the course of a call with me that they'd messed up my film order and had missed the post. I was due to travel on an assignment the following day. They got in a car and drove nearly 100 miles round trip to get me the film on time. I just can't imagine any retail outlet of my knowledge doing that. I'd like to think that this outlet got enough business from me after this event to have made their gesture worthwhile.

railwayman3 · Jan 28, 2012

I can understand "traditional" photo-shops feeling upset when potential customers use their expertise and then buy elsewhere at a lower price. (I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that myself, but many people see nothing wrong in it.)

But mail order and cut-price "box shifters" businesses have been set up by entrepreneurs who have seen an opportunity and demand, and, if the traditional shops failed to see this and take the opportunity themselves, they can hardly blame their customers. I'm not taking sides on whether this is, morally, right-or-wrong, but it's a fact of capitalism. We've seen what is happening to Kodak, who (arguably) seem to have missed opportunities and changing circumstances, while Amazon, etc., flourish (yet still seem to offer very good, if rather impersonal, service).

zk-cessnaguy · Jan 28, 2012

I've had some decidedly unpleasant JB Hifi experiences here, so I'm not suprised they'd be charging a look-see fee. What took the cake was the incident of the iPhone car kit - I was buying computer gear, trackpad and some other stuff, about $300 or so and they had the car kit I wanted... at an outrageous price compared to what Apple was selling it for.
So I asked if they would price match with Apple.
"Nah" was the surly response, so I smiled sweetly, said to the sales drone "here, hold these" and handed him the other items I was going to buy.

Then I walked out the store. Never spent a cent there since.

On the other hand I do my best to support the serious camera stores we have here. Especially the one with the on-site lab and the young sales guy who's response to me dropping off some Velvia was a friendly "what you shooting with?" followed by "sweet man, same here" when I told him it was an F4.

John Austin · Jan 28, 2012

This is why we are so lucky!!

All this JB-LowFi stuff is another reason for me to keep using silver jelly and cameras from the 1960s and 1970s and another reason I feel lucky to be a silver jelly film user - The one thing the sales being from JB-LowFi I have encountered knew about cameras was his sales commission (Joondalup Shopping Center, WA, about eighteen months ago)

Worker 11811 · Jan 28, 2012

benjiboy said:
The reason they don't have it in stock and "can order it for you" Randy is that as the economy gets tougher and tougher stores can't afford to keep large amounts stock on the shelves that isn't selling because they have to pay for their inventory on their shelves which is dead money and could be worth hundreds of thousands of £ or $ accruing no interest until it is sold, so they use the importers or wholesalers as a warehouse for the less popular items to save money and get them for customers on request, so they aren't carrying things in stock that aren't selling on a regular basis.

But that's the thing. I usually don't go into a store looking for oddball stuff. For photo stuff, I'm just looking for the staples. Things lik D-76, Stop Bath, Fixer, HCA and PhotoFlo. My store usually stocks a selection of Ilford papers and at least one brand of film in 400 and 100 ISO. About three times per year, at the beginning of every school term, they'll stock up on supplies. Toward the end of the term, their supplies dwindle. These are things to be expected in any retail business. These are not the things that bother me.

When I go shopping, I'll usually have a certain brand or product in mind. I often look for it on the internet, first, and see if any local stores carry that item or at least that brand or a similar product line. At this point, I believe it is reasonable to go to a store and ask for a specific product. At this point, I believe it is reasonable to complain when the store doesn't have what you want. How else can a store know what products the customers want to buy if they don't tell the staff what they are looking for and when they don't complain (with reasonable manners) when they don't have what people want?

On the other hand, if I go to the store and they have what I'm looking for, it is reasonalbe for the salesman to expect me to buy.
If the price isn't too expensive, compared to other stores and if you take internet pricing into account (product price + shipping/tax + reasonable retail markup) I, most often, buy on the spot. Why would any half-intelligent person spend the gas money, brave the traffic and generally withstand the hassle of going to the mall if he didn't intend to buy something?

The exception to that would be if you are already in the store and you ask an off-the-cuff question for a product.
If I was leaving the store and, on the way out, I asked, "Hey, do you have any Tri-X?" I wouldn't expect the guy to jump up and get it right now. If he answered, "We're all out but our order comes in next week," I'd be fine with that.

I guess the bottom line is that it's all about context. I understand that. However, the retail trade is all about selling customers the products they want to buy at the prices they can afford to pay. When a store consistently doesn't meet expectations, they won't have much business... at least not MY business!

"Explanation Fee" for tyre-kickers...

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