"Explanation Fee" for tyre-kickers...

It is Do Not Call:
https://www.donotcall.gov.au/

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Yes, and it "Does Not Work"

Or, more precisely, it works for legitimate businesses. The guys from India trying to sell you crap and the scammers after your credit card number don't care what list you're on.

Get an answering machine, and then dial a non-working number. Record the "beep-boop-beep" tones at the start of the intercept message. Put this tone at the start of your answering machine message. Their autodiallers may be programmed to detect this sequence of tones and automatically remove you (presumed to be non-working) number from their database.

I've tried the above, and it does seem to result in a reduction of junk calls. Don't know if you have the same system in Oz, but worth a try if you do...

We recently signed on for "Call Display" service. It is wonderful - if the number is an "Unknown Number", we let the answering machine take it - 99% don't bother to leave a message.

EDIT: And on the subject of the thread ...

I recently saw a box on display in a camera store that at least purportedly contained a new lens I might be interested in. I wanted to see it "in the flesh", but they declined to open the box for me unless I was willing to state that I was actually in the market to buy one.

I don't know if that store had a policy to automatically give a discount if a lens had previously been used for "display" purposes.

The lens in question wasn't a particularly rare one.

I fully sympathize with the owners of brick and mortar stores these days.

$30 is too steep (even from a good store dedicated to cameras).

But I won't be adversed if a new custom of tipping store clerks for good information (or demo) can somehow be presented without too much of a hassle.

After all, you tip your waiter for serving, don't you?

Peter Simpson said:

Yes, and it "Does Not Work" Don't know if you have the same system in Oz, but worth a try if you do...

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It certainly worked for us — after a 4 tedious month wait! That was about 3-4 years ago now.
We were being pestered just about every night from some guy on high in a little tin shed in Bangalore trying to flog HP computers, then another trying flog HP computer support services (no such thing of course)! I am a HP computer owner and it was registered online — BIG mistake! Along came a spider. Presto! And I was in terrible web of nefarious marketers in a far away land. They also spammed my fax, but they were not alone: Chinese tour companies, weight loss pills (as if!), car insurance, Viagra (I prefer oysters) and reams of illegible junk from an obscure coffee merchant in Brazil.

So, from experience it worked for us, and our immediate neighbours, and my Mum too. There are something like 3-4 million numbers on the Do Not Call Register in Australia, so obviously something is working and working well.

I remember a little while back reading that some of the outdoor store (Outsports/Paddy's etc) were doing that to for footwear. Exactly same reason people come try on the boots see if there OK then go buy online.

oldglass said:

I fully sympathize with the owners of brick and mortar stores these days.

$30 is too steep (even from a good store dedicated to cameras).

But I won't be adversed if a new custom of tipping store clerks for good information (or demo) can somehow be presented without too much of a hassle.

After all, you tip your waiter for serving, don't you?

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Tipping? What's that? We're Australian's... we don't tip

I was discussing this matter with one of my sons and he had a very interesting reply, he sad "the customers are just exploiting the stores because in the current economic climate they have the upper hand for many years the shops had the upper hand and mercilessly exploited the general public for all they were worth, as Karl Marx said "capitalism is savagery" .

benjiboy said:

I was discussing this matter with one of my sons and he had a very interesting reply, he sad "the customers are just exploiting the stores because in the current economic climate they have the upper hand for many years the shops had the upper hand and mercilessly exploited the general public for all they were worth, as Karl Marx said "capitalism is savagery" .

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It's true. Canadian photo gear distributors hosed consumers for years with pricing unhitched from Canada/US dollar exchange rates--prices 20-40% higher weren't uncommon. eBay and online sales generally left them crying and retailers hurting but where was it written this kind of extortion would last forever? It still goes on but on a smaller scale. Tire kicking? They asked for it.

I think that an examination fee is justifiable if they've been loosing a lot of time to gawkers walking in and handling the merchandise, then leaving with no sale. The worst part of that is the time lost from paying activities, like repairs. However, I think that the shop should credit the exam fee towards a purchase if one is eventually made.

I do something similar in my line of work; was losing too much time to time wasters looking for free info, and then they go home and purchase web products.

Yes and Cdn distributors have much higher fixed costs, bilingual packaging, benefits, wages, severance pay, freight, payroll taxes, UI and pension premiums, etc in a market 1/10th the size of the US. Now see what happens when CDN employers want to lower the wages they pay. Everyone screams blue murder. If you want US pricing in Canada, you'll have to settle for US style wages and benefits(almost none) and health insurance costs, not to mention paying approx twice the price for prescription drugs.

Bob-D659 said:

Yes and Cdn distributors have much higher fixed costs, bilingual packaging, benefits, wages, severance pay, freight, payroll taxes, UI and pension premiums, etc in a market 1/10th the size of the US. Now see what happens when CDN employers want to lower the wages they pay. Everyone screams blue murder. If you want US pricing in Canada, you'll have to settle for US style wages and benefits(almost none) and health insurance costs, not to mention paying approx twice the price for prescription drugs.

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Pull the other one. Any idea how few people work for Amplis, Nadel, and DayMen? What accounts for Nikon.ca waking up a few years ago and putting prices roughly on par with US prices? Never got much love from Canadian distributors. I'll live with a 10-15% spread but not 30-40%. They've historically charged what they felt the market would bear--a strategy that's plainly not working any longer. Small sellers like the dvshop in Toronto regularly undersell their sleepy competition at Vistek and Henry's. What about film prices? There's no Kodak.ca and Fujifilm.ca runs with a skeleton crew in Mississauga. If I want US pricing, I shop at B&H.

When I had a store I would spend 20 minutes explaining a 5.97 bird feeder and bird feeding in general and then the customer said that he was going to buy it at Canadian Tire but that they do not know anything about them so he came in for advice and acted like I should be happy about that (same feeder was 5.99 at Canadian Tire by the way). Many on forums suggest going to a store and trying out all the cameras and having everything explained to them and then order on line because it is cheaper .

I could not see charging a customer for looking at merchandise or for talking to them but the other side of the coin is that if small shops are only there for info and to help us decide what to order on line, do not complain when all the actual stores disappear and on line is the only place to get stuff.

Our local camera shop has been selling and explaining stuff for big box customers for years.
People have no shame anymore.

As far as Canadian prices for photo stuff goes, when I had my store we sold Pentax binoculars but not cameras. I did get the price list though and I could barely buy a camera wholesale for what the big mail order (1990s) stores in the US sold them for. I would not be able to compete with them at all as even just taking a credit card would have meant losing money on the item. But in the little store I had selling about 15 pairs of binos per year my customers got them for less than those big mail order places sold them for. My point is that the manufacturer may have different pricing for different products in the various markets. With cameras if I did sell them a customer would have claimed that I was making too much money selling it for $400 when he could get it for 350 in the States but I would have been paying maybe 395 or more for it myself. Retails are often driven by wholesale prices more than what it sells for in another country. And even selling the binoculars less than they were in the US or London Drugs I would still get people coming into the store who were not regular customers demanding deep discounts on them, and I would have to say no because a sale without a profit is a losing sale unless it is old merchandise that you wished to clear.

redrockcoulee said:

When I had a store I would spend 20 minutes explaining a 5.97 bird feeder and bird feeding in general and then the customer said that he was going to buy it at Canadian Tire but that they do not know anything about them so he came in for advice and acted like I should be happy about that (same feeder was 5.99 at Canadian Tire by the way). Many on forums suggest going to a store and trying out all the cameras and having everything explained to them and then order on line because it is cheaper .

I could not see charging a customer for looking at merchandise or for talking to them but the other side of the coin is that if small shops are only there for info and to help us decide what to order on line, do not complain when all the actual stores disappear and on line is the only place to get stuff.

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With respect, anyone in retail can usually smell a "crock" and limit the damage by cutting the face time short, especially if it's plain they're tire kicking or looking for entertainment. Most camera shop help I contact isn't much more into the stock than BestBuy staff. With so many reviews and pricing info online for almost anything, any rube stumbling into a store for looking for demo and show isn't likely to graduate to customer.

CGW said:

With respect, anyone in retail can usually smell a "crock" and limit the damage by cutting the face time short, especially if it's plain they're tire kicking or looking for entertainment. Most camera shop help I contact isn't much more into the stock than BestBuy staff. With so many reviews and pricing info online for almost anything, any rube stumbling into a store for looking for demo and show isn't likely to graduate to customer.

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It was amazing how in my shop how many of these "time wasters" who just wanted to play with the merchandise we got if it was raining or snowing until it stopped, as you write experienced salespeople can usually recognize them for what they are, but I must admit I have sometimes in the past been surprised and been very wrong.
It was about ten years ago that I stopped working in photographic retailing which was before the internet really got going, I'm just glad to be out of it and happily retired it must be hell now.

Hmm talk about The World Owes Me a Living.

Some retailers have already learned that they have to find a way of competing with online suppliers or else go to the wall. Some clearly haven't. I can think of three likely scenarios where this charge will backfire.

First it will highlight that many photographic retail staff know next to nothing about what they're selling and any attempt to sell their lack of knowledge will cement a customer view that they will be better off elsewhere. Frankly here in the UK I can gert better more detailed advice on the phone from a distance seller than I often get in a camera store.

Second some people will feel that handling and operating the goods is an integral part of retail, not something to be unbundled and charged for. These people won't pay the $30 and will go elsewhere.

Third, some people will consider that if they've paid $30 for "advice" they are now morally entitled to go anywhere to buy. These are people who would have hesitated to waste the retailera time without a clear probability of buying there.


Its the conversation with the retailer that turns the tyre-kicker into a potential buyer. I hope this ill-conceived venture will get all the success it deserves. Whilst retailers view the people who deign to walk through their doors as timewasters instead of opportunities there is little hope for left for them. When people stop walking through their doors and stop "wasting their time" there is no hope left at all.

As one who has owned a brick and mortar business for most of my life, I can tell you how much it cost per hour to keep my doors open. If someone is using my employees time, only for their own benefit (shopping with no intention of buying,) they are stealing money from my pocket and perhaps from the pocket of my employee if they are compensated on their sales volume. Additionally they are taking money out of my pocket if their handling, touching, feeling my gear turns it from "New" to "Used/Demo." Bill Barber

nsurit said:

As one who has owned a brick and mortar business for most of my life, I can tell you how much it cost per hour to keep my doors open. If someone is using my employees time, only for their own benefit (shopping with no intention of buying,) they are stealing money from my pocket and perhaps from the pocket of my employee if they are compensated on their sales volume. Additionally they are taking money out of my pocket if their handling, touching, feeling my gear turns it from "New" to "Used/Demo." Bill Barber

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If they are stealing you should call the police.

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I know someone who charges a fee for trying on sports shoes because he got tired of people trying shoes to see if they fit and then buying the same pair cheaper off the internet. Of course if you buy the shoes from the shop, then the fee gets taken off the price.

Edward_S said:

I know someone who charges a fee for trying on sports shoes because he got tired of people trying shoes to see if they fit and then buying the same pair cheaper off the internet. Of course if you buy the shoes from the shop, then the fee gets taken off the price.

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That is smart. People will pay the fee if they are sure they want to buy that product from the store.

I bought some cowboy boots a while back and I was really unsure of my size (usually you want them a little larger than regular shoes, if they have a pointy toe). I walked into a store and tried on 2 pairs and found the perfect size. They had the brand but not the style I wanted so I didn't buy boots. On the other hand, they had the only pair of laces I have managed to find for a pair of 14-up DMs, so I got those.
(See, when you get people in the door, sometimes they buy stuff they forgot they needed).
I think I might have been prepared to pay a fee (maybe a fiver?) to confirm my boot size as that is the crucial part of buying shoes online.

As far as cameras go, I would generally be smart enough to download a manual before doing the shopping IRL. Nothing beats checking it out in a shop though. Handling is an important aspect.

But that's retail. Either someone has already played with their friend's 5DMkII and wants one, or they need to keep up with the Jones family, OR they're not sure about the product yet. You let them get a feel for it, they might buy it from you. If you can compete with other retailers, you've got an advantage. If you pay astronomical rent, then you're at a disadvantage because your prices simply have to be higher. Several camera shops here (Dublin) have gone bust because they were in very high-rent areas.


I always got taught to 'do it yourself', but I still recognise a useful salesman and don't mind paying a little for their help. It is kinda like tipping. Unfortunately, a lot of sales people these days (in many industries) just don't care for their jobs (and will lose them, given time).

the world is full of time-wasters
they should have started charging extra
money a long time ago ...

I'd gladly pay that fee... If I was paid to enter the store.

I'm happy to pay a few bucks more and support a local retailer, just for the opportunity to see/try items before purchase. But a fee *upfront* just for a looksie? LOL, I don't think so. Desperation of that sort I would have no interest in supporting.

wotalegend said:

If I were asked to pay a $30 "explanation fee" I would want to be absolutely certain that the person giving advice is knowledgeable, experienced in photography, 100% correct, and not giving biased comment based on the amount of mark-up the store expects and/or commission the salesperson expects to receive on each brand. I am not at all confident that I could find such a person behind the counter of even the dedicated camera shops, e.g. Teds, so the chance of finding such a person in the likes of JB Hi-Fi is about as good as finding a snow flake in Hell.

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Exactly. And what happens if you "stump the schmuck" behind the counter? Do you get your 30 bucks back?