Explain slide film to newbie

[yohimbe2]

I have 30 rolls of Velvia 50 and a Nikon F5. I was hoping that this film/camera combo might add a layer to my hobby (95% digital)

Where can I get this film developed? Can anyone explain what slides are and how it works to get them printed? Rockwell lead me to Velvia 50 and I'm lost

 

[PeteZ8]

You're going to love Velvia once you learn to shoot it. There are still lots of places that do E6 (slide) processing. Where on this shiny blue marble are you located?

Shooting slide flim is in some ways a lot like digital. There is almost no margin of error for exposure. But when it's right... it's something to behold. Fortunately the F5 has one of the best meters in the industry.

 

[polyglot]

A slide is a positive and you don't generally print it; you look at it on a light table (or hold it up against the window) or project it. The analog technology for printing slides (Cibachrome) is discontinued so the only good option for printing them is to scan and print digitally. However, the slides have a lot more dynamic range than can be represented in a print, so the print will always be a sad imitation of the slide.

A pro lab that advertises E6 processing can develop them for you. If we know where you are, people can probably recommend a lab.

You have to be extremely accurate with your metering because slide film (and Velvia in particular) has basically no latitude; it will clip both highlights and shadows. You will retain detail reliably only from -2 to +2 stops from the metered value so you probably want to do lots of spot-metering in the camera to check that the dynamic range of your scene fits into what the film can record before pushing the button. Since you're mostly digital, you can use a digital to preview what it will look like on the slide; expect to get a bit less shadow detail than the digital.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

I take the view that for a newbie, expose Velvia any which way you want to when you are using it for the first time. One proviso: take notes of each and every exposure. No special metering, just let the camera do it for you. When the slides come back, examine each one against your notes. Major problems with exposure will be glaringly evident on Velvia with as little as 1 stop over or under sufficient to block shadows and blow highlights, though far more gracefully than what you will have seen with digital. The exposure intent of Velvia, along with its flashy stablemate, 100F, is diffuse light. This means that contrast will be well within its limitations provided you expose correctly (neither high or low). RVP 50 can work a treat at EI40 in hazy sun with light shadows, but bright sun (point light) will give you massive swathes of black, blown whites and Vaudeville colour. Slap a polariser on for added intensity, particularly in forests, but you will need to fine tune your exposure at the risk of killing the atmosphere.

You may wish to re-rate Velvia at EI40 (+1/3) from box speed (e.g. set ISO dial to 40). Try this against standard ISO50 exposures (no harm in switching the iso dial any which way you want from one exposure to the next and so on). Also basal shift of meter (start at +0.3, or +0.6, then shift to 50 and -0.3). Spot metering is useful but ideally you need to see how Velvia behaves with little or no intervention in metering: it is less important with 35mm, particularly cameras with evaluative, matrix or multi-pattern meters, all of which are calibrated along the principles of the Zone System. Most people on APUG spot meter Velvia thus: Hi/mid-tone/lo then average, when any manner of shifts in the exposure from experimentation. Large and medium format is much easier to selectively meter than 35mm, but you must be good!

A histogram on a digital camera is not a reliable indicator of exposure against slide film.

 

[Diapositivo]

Besides having your slide film processed, you can process them yourself. For very good and very easy results you should have some way to control temperature and to standardize inversions and agitations (or, in one word, a rotary processor with temperature control), but for fast and good enough results you can try with a simple setup, not much more complicated than developing Black & white besides bringing the baths in temperature.

The process is called E6 or E-6 and you will find tons of information on this site. The cost of the chemistry is around €1 per roll here in Europe but you have to account also for the darkroom material (drum, thermometer, maybe film "dryer").

Regarding exposure, slide film in general is a bit more tolerant to highlights burning than digital. Digital clips abruptly, slide film "clips" more gradually and therefore much more pleasantly. Colour negative film, on the contrary, has a much larger exposure latitude in the highlights than both digital and slide film.

My advice in using slide film is to first learn to use an external incident light meter. That will give you optimal exposures with all subject with the only exception of very white and brilliant surfaces such as marble façades, or white buildings, directly in bright sunlight. In those cases I suggest to close 0.5 EV to avoid a large and important part of the subject to end up in a zone of the characteristic curve where no much detail is to be seen (you will sacrifice some detail in the shadows, evidently). The rule is: expose for the highlights (meaning: pay attention not to burn the highlights).

Velvia 50 is a particular beast in the slide panorama. Very dark blacks, but also greater contrast - a greater tendency to block shadows and burn highlights than the ordinary slide film.

If the subject is not too much "contrasted" a Velvia will give very saturated colours (with a typical colour palette which might or might not suit your taste) and a generally speaking stunning slide to project. If the subject is contrasted you might find that the resulting image has got both blocked shadows and washed highlights.

Skin rendition not optimal, no good for portrait. The typical use of Velvia is the blue blue sea, the green green grass, the red red flowers, etc. I wouldn't rate Velvia a slide film for general use. Actually I used very little of it. It's a peculiar material. You shouldn't take its pros and cons as representative of slide film in general.

All what above is my personal opinion on this film, based on a few rolls which were enough for me to understand that it was not my film of normal choice. Others might disagree. Your mileage may vary.

Slide film has its raison d'être in a projection. You should get a slide projector and a projection screen. The results will be much above whatever you experienced so far. For personal enjoyment, a light table and a loupe will do.

If your main goal is to print your photographs slide film is not the best choice. Nowadays the only options you have is an hybrid printing: either scanning yourself the slide and having the file printed, or bringing the film to a laboratory which has a device similar to a Durst Lambda, able to scan your slide and then print it optically on photographic paper. That shouldn't cost more than printing of negatives, and the laboratory should be able to give you a CD with the scans, that you can use to share your images on the internet, this forum included.

Slide film performs pretty well and pretty fast also in hybrid workflow if you have a good dedicated film scanner (such as a dedicated film scanner from Minolta or Nikon). "Film scanner" is opposed to "flatbed scanner".

Negative film also performs well with hybrid workflow but you will find the noise in the highlights and colour balancing might be more difficult than you imagine unless you adopt a proper, accurate workflow.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Reading through an Ilfochrome jobbing file just now, I noted, in regard to "difficulties in working with Velvia's primaries on Ilfo' [Ilfochrome Classic]", the long defunct Kodachrome 200 was cited by my three Ilfochrome printers and colour grader as being infinitely better than Velvia in rendering reds, but less appealing with blues and greens, with a comment, "this is one of the few incidences we would recommended PKL200 over Velvia". Nowadays we have Provia 100 to get a slightly better key on raucous primaries and coherent contrast.

 

[yohimbe2]

You're going to love Velvia once you learn to shoot it. There are still lots of places that do E6 (slide) processing. Where on this shiny blue marble are you located?

Shooting slide flim is in some ways a lot like digital. There is almost no margin of error for exposure. But when it's right... it's something to behold. Fortunately the F5 has one of the best meters in the industry.

Vienna, Virginia. Suburb Wash DC

I'm using an 81A (A2) filter in direct sunlight.

 

[Hatchetman]

The lab Rockwell recommends, North Coast Photo, is excellent. http://www.northcoastphoto.com/.

Send in a couple of rolls and have them do the enhanced scanning. Processing and scanning is about $20 per roll. Yes, expensive, but it will give you a pretty good idea of what Velvia can do. If you find you like working with slide film, the obvious next step would be to find a decent projector and screen. Projecting slides is more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

 

[PhotoJim]

You'll like Velvia. I definitely recommend that you find a projector. Digital projection pales so badly compared to transmission projection like you can do with a slide.

A good mail-order lab in the US is Dwayne's in Parsons, Kansas. When I'm in the US I mail my E6 film there and they forward it to me in Canada, all processed. Their charges are quite reasonable.

I was just in Washington but I'm not sure if there's a good E6 lab in the area. I'm sure someone will post if there is.

 

[PhotoJim]

Oh, and no 81A! That will really tweak the colour and make it look fake.

Velvia is already extremely punchy. I use it either naked or with a polarizer when I shoot in daylight.

 

[trojancast]

Don't scare the poor guy off. Your camera has one of the finest meters ever made. Just go out and shoot and have fun. Make detailed notes? What are you, a detective?

Once processed, scan them and print digitally. You are going to love slide film.

If not, send all that film to me!

 

[yohimbe2]

Oh, and no 81A! That will really tweak the colour and make it look fake.

Velvia is already extremely punchy. I use it either naked or with a polarizer when I shoot in daylight.

OK.....I really like what I've seen in rockwells website, but this Velvia 50 is leaning me back towards digital. What a hassle. ( I've been turned down three times at local developers)


I have no idea what a slide is. ( Do I need some old school projector?) I'm not getting it.

 

[wildbill]

wow! maybe we should introduce you to google.
mail the film to me if you can't handle it.

 

[trojancast]

Where on earth are you located???

 

[yohimbe2]

Vienna, Virginia. Suburb Wash DC

Should I buy this?

Vintage KODAK Carousel 600 35mm Slide Projector

 

[yohimbe2]

hhlj

 

[trojancast]

So, if you want to project your slides onto a screen to entertain your friends, yah, go for the slide projector. But be forewarned, they,may not be your friends for long. My advice, invest in a good quality scanner and scan your slides to digital. The slides are not going anywhere, so you can always do a slide show later. But yes, a slide projector is what this film was made for.

 

[yohimbe2]

So, if you want to project your slides onto a screen to entertain your friends, yah, go for the slide projector. But be forewarned, they,may not be your friends for long. My advice, invest in a good quality scanner and scan your slides to digital. The slides are not going anywhere, so you can always do a slide show later. But yes, a slide projector is what this film was made for.

iuyoiyoi

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

OK.....I really like what I've seen in rockwells website, but this Velvia 50 is leaning me back towards digital. What a hassle. ( I've been turned down three times at local developers)
I have no idea what a slide is. ( Do I need some old school projector?) I'm not getting it.

Why is Velvia leading you back down the road to perdition!? What is the hassle with learning and doing something properly, which slide film can teach you, rather than pixel-peeping onto a false-colour screen and repeating the image 30x to get it right?? I would have thought life is full of hassles. Slide film doesn't rate a mention.

Let's oversimplify "slide" film: it's a long strand piece of cellulose acetate. Chemicals are impregnated on it at manufacture. When slide film goes to the processor, which must provide for E6 (specifically for slides, NOT C41, which is for negatives), those chemicals are stripped away to reveal the latent image recorded by the camera during exposure. There is no reversal or peculiar shades of light and dark of the image like negative film. It is, for all intents and purposes, the finished image, which, when well exposed (I'm not using "correctly" exposed because all professionals have their own interpretations of a correct exposure) is very eyecatching and satisfying to look at (there are many uses for them besides projecting). Slides when cut into individual frames can be "mounted" (in plastic frames) or more commonly nowadays, unmounted e.g. one continuous roll of images from 1 to 36 (in the case of 35mm). If in a roll like this, you have to cut them into 6s or individually for archival mounts (chiefly polypropelene/card mounts). When finished, slides must be handled with care: they scratch very easily. Their beauty will be fully evident if you view them with a lightbox. I haven't seen a projector since Jesus played half-back for Jerusalem, so I imagine they are very old school.

Ken Rockwell is good at making headlines about himself, though he does make some valid points about Velvia. There is something you need to grasp: all active professionals using Velvia have their own methods for using it, and it is the gold standard for professional imaging. What you see on KR's website is NOT necessarily representative of Velvia on a global scale. What really matters is you getting out there with a few rolls and finding out for yourself, through actively exposing and experimenting with it, how it best fits your needs. If you don't like it, then go to the alternative. But APUG is not the place to discuss all things digital. That's for the sister site, DPUG. And yes, you should take notes of your exposures when you are starting out so that you can reason and understand why problems are occurring and what you can do to correct them by referring back.


• Image from Velvia 50 overexposed 0.3 (scan from Ilfochrome Classic print)

 

[trojancast]

Well said "fish of the day".

 

[yohimbe2]

Why is Velvia leading you back down the road to perdition!? What is the hassle with learning and doing something properly, which slide film can teach you, rather than pixel-peeping onto a false-colour screen and repeating the image 30x to get it right?? I would have thought life is full of hassles. Slide film doesn't rate a mention.

Let's oversimplify "slide" film: it's a long strand piece of cellulose acetate. Chemicals are impregnated on it at manufacture. When slide film goes to the processor, which must provide for E6 (specifically for slides, NOT C41, which is for negatives), those chemicals are stripped away to reveal the latent image recorded by the camera during exposure. There is no reversal or peculiar shades of light and dark of the image like negative film. It is, for all intents and purposes, the finished image, which, when well exposed (I'm not using "correctly" exposed because all professionals have their own interpretations of a correct exposure) is very eyecatching and satisfying to look at (there are many uses for them besides projecting). Slides when cut into individual frames can be "mounted" (in plastic frames) or more commonly nowadays, unmounted e.g. one continuous roll of images from 1 to 36 (in the case of 35mm). If in a roll like this, you have to cut them into 6s or individually for archival mounts (chiefly polypropelene/card mounts). When finished, slides must be handled with care: they scratch very easily. Their beauty will be fully evident if you view them with a lightbox. I haven't seen a projector since Jesus played half-back for Jerusalem, so I imagine they are very old school.

Ken Rockwell is good at making headlines about himself, though he does make some valid points about Velvia. There is something you need to grasp: all active professionals using Velvia have their own methods for using it, and it is the gold standard for professional imaging. What you see on KR's website is NOT necessarily representative of Velvia on a global scale. What really matters is you getting out there with a few rolls and finding out for yourself, through actively exposing and experimenting with it, how it best fits your needs. If you don't like it, then go to the alternative. But APUG is not the place to discuss all things digital. That's for the sister site, DPUG. And yes, you should take notes of your exposures when you are starting out so that you can reason and understand why problems are occurring and what you can do to correct them by referring back.

All I know is my local developers....( Walgreens, Costco, and even my high end dealer , ACE Photo) all act as if I'm from mars when I bring this film. Costco told me " This is the first time I've ever seen this film"... EVER !

I must be a freak.

I like to listen to Vinyl albums on vaccuum tube amps. (I like the good "old school technology") But this film is a real PITA. Help to lean me away from digital........I'm easy, but so far film is making it hard--------although I am rooting for it to win.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) made a valid recommendation to you for processing, and such recommendations are a very common thing here on APUG: even if you don't have a local lab, you post it out, have it posted back or go pedal 60km round trip to collect it.

Costco is here in Victoria, Australia too. We avoid it like the Black Plague. Incompetence is just one of their finer points.

I have friends who collect vinyl albums and a tube amps; he has more than 18,000 vinyls dating from the 60s. Valve amp officionados are common, you're not a solo flyer: all about collect, restore, listen and talk about. But it's a PITA indeedy if a valve or two blows her top...

 

[PhotoJim]

OK.....I really like what I've seen in rockwells website, but this Velvia 50 is leaning me back towards digital. What a hassle. ( I've been turned down three times at local developers)

Why is this a hassle?

Shoot it without a filter, or use a polarizing filter to darken the sky. Shooting digital without a polarizer is underexploiting what it can do, too. You can't fake a polarizer's effects very easily.

You're adding complexity doing it the way you want, not subtracting complexity.

Put it in your camera. if you're outside and it's sunny, add your circular polarizer filter. (You want one, if you don't have one, no matter what sort of photography you do.) Send it to the lab I recommended (those $5.35 Priority Mail boxes will hold at least ten rolls.)

Good things are worth a little hassle... but this isn't much hassle.

 

[ME Super]

All I know is my local developers....( Walgreens, Costco, and even my high end dealer , ACE Photo) all act as if I'm from mars when I bring this film. Costco told me " This is the first time I've ever seen this film"... EVER !

I must be a freak.

I like to listen to Vinyl albums on vaccuum tube amps. (I like the good "old school technology") But this film is a real PITA. Help to lean me away from digital........I'm easy, but so far film is making it hard--------although I am rooting for it to win.

Your mentioning Walgreens and Costco makes me think you're in the US like me. I The info wasn't below your id so I'm not sure exactly where you are. The below applies to the US.

Find someplace local that sends film out. I know there's Anti-Walmart sentiment but they do send out, as does Meijers. Both send to Fuji. Fuji sends their E-6 out to Dwayne's.

How to use Wal-Mart send-out for slide film:

1. Fill out the name and address information on the envelope.
2. Put a big X through the square containing all the options for prints.
3. Mark the special instructions checkbox.
4. In the special instructions box, write "E-6 (slide) film. Develop and mount."
5. Drop a roll of slide film in the envelope, seal it, and drop it in the slot.
6. Repeat steps 1-5 for any additional rolls that are ready to send out.
7. Pick up the film when it comes back to the store.

Don't know when the film is back? Check their schedule and add 1 week for slides. So if they pick up Tuesday and Friday, and print film picked up on Tuesday is back on Friday, don't go back on Friday when the prints are back, wait until the following Friday and your slides will be ready for pick up.

The cool thing is that the only thing the monkeys at Wal-Mart do is log your film when it leaves the store, and log it when it comes back in. Slide film sent out this way goes to Dwayne's via Fuji, and Dwayne's is a reputable lab.

Alternate way to get your slides developed: Buy the prepaid Fuji mailers online from Adorama or B&H (does Freestyle sell these?) Put 3 stamps on the envelope, drop your film in, and mail it out. Coincidentally, the address on the mailers is the address for Dwayne's, so you bypass the middle man (Wal-Mart and the Fuji film sorting center) so you may even get your film back a bit quicker.

 

[Alan Klein]

Velvia 100 in medium format: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/tags/velvia100/

Velvia 50 in medium format: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/tags/velvia/