expired Kodak Vision3 ?

there are expired rolls of Kodak Vision3 emulsions in 200ft and 400ft here and there on the net.
Produced mid-to end 2000's (2005, 2008, ...) so ~ 15 years old.
With the assumption that seller is correct about rolls having been stored all the time cold, I wonder if degration is similar to any other colour film specifically produced for photo instead of movie.
Keeps similar, better or worse?

I am considering buying some 400ft roll of 250D or 500T. I'd rather buy 250D because typically faster film degrades faster over time, but no idea is it's significant from 250iso to 500iso.

(yes i known about remjet, I do C41 home and would just wash it away, and would use a 85b filter in case of the 500T)

antonio_b said:

Keeps similar, better or worse?

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I have found cine films keep worse. I also did not like developing ECN2 films in C41. In ECN2 they look of course very nice.

thank you. So I will not buy a big expired roll, but yet out of curiosity just few ~36x canisters from resellers who claim they get bit fresher film directly from studios or from Kodak. I found film sold as fresh 2020 and other from 2011, so I could compare.

I found mixed reviews and samples about the differences ECN2/C41 depending exposure used.
Could try ECN-2, as I see Adox/Fotoimpex in Berlin sells two small powder kits, one is QWDLab the other Cinestill. Strangely they don't sell the Bellini kit, which is otherwise sold by other (smaller) staple shops of analog photography in Europe, like Ars-Imago in Zürich, Retrocamera in Ieper, Nick&Trick in Folkestone, Laboargentique near Limoges. There's also a guy selling his own kits from Moskva. For Scandinavia I had a look at Brunos bildverkstad and they don't list ECN-2. Anyway I buy my chemicals from Berlin or Hamburg usually.

AFAIK Cinestill kit doesn't contain remjet removal bath, but they do mention that they don't skip on some of the "optional" components of the ECN-2 developer. So far I've tried the Bellini and Russian ECN-2 kit that you can find on eBay. I didn't find much difference in the end result (I only order developer part from Russia as I found that the bleach from the kit didn't work for me so I just use bleach and fix from my C-41), but since I've started printing in darkroom I haven't really used ECN-2 film as the results are not that good most of the time.

If you want to see how expired Vision3 films works for you I can send you a few rolls to try (I have 5203 and 5219). One of my short rolls came with "Spectre" written on the can (got them from frame24 when they still had short rolls and recans) so you can roughly estimate the age of the film. I had the 5219 frozen and 5203 cold stored for most of the time since I got it...

brbo said:

AFAIK Cinestill kit doesn't contain remjet removal bath, but they do mention that they don't skip on some of the "optional" components of the ECN-2 developer. So far I've tried the Bellini and Russian ECN-2 kit that you can find on eBay. I didn't find much difference in the end result (I only order developer part from Russia as I found that the bleach from the kit didn't work for me so I just use bleach and fix from my C-41), but since I've started printing in darkroom I haven't really used ECN-2 film as the results are not that good most of the time.

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yes the description of the Cinestill kit on Fotoimpex site mentions it is a derivated ECN-2, because they remove the remjet before making their canisters, and otherwise maybe some other minor tweak.
I'd go with the russian kit I guess, because shipment of Bellini from UK, Belgium or France to Norway is really expensive. Could be also the occasion to finally mix my own chemicals at home, something I wanted to do since long with C-41, but the price of Fuji X-press or Compard from Fotoimpex or Maco is ok for me so I better support them so long they are selling these kits. Otherwise raw powders can be bought from Wolfgang Moersch, from Bellini and/or some from ebay. Ph control is critical, and for this ph test stripes will do, no need to buy a 300€ ph-meter.

If you want to see how expired Vision3 films works for you I can send you a few rolls to try (I have 5203 and 5219). One of my short rolls came with "Spectre" written on the can (got them from frame24 when they still had short rolls and recans) so you can roughly estimate the age of the film. I had the 5219 frozen and 5203 cold stored for most of the time since I got it...

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much appreciated! yes I'd glady buy some canisters or lenght from you, I was going to buy anyway on ebay some 250D and 500T (5219), 5203 is the 50D I think, nice! Send me a PM with details for payment.

antonio_b said:

There's also a guy selling his own kits from Moskva.

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I tried getting the kit from that guy but it bounced in swedish customs and got sent back to him. So there's a risk of that happening for you too. Just so you know! I did get the money back though promptly so that guy is not a scammer or anything.

I just got some ECN2 developer and used the rest of the steps from my C41 kit and got excellent results.

eatfrog said:

I tried getting the kit from that guy but it bounced in swedish customs and got sent back to him. So there's a risk of that happening for you too. Just so you know!

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well, I have bought a kit from him today I'll see.

By the way about bureaucracy affecting our analog hobby:

when I buy chemicals or whatever from Fotoimpex or Maco in Germany I have it send to an address in Sweden by the norwegian border, it's 90 kms from my place, so I drive over to pick it.
Because Norway, not EU, has an online vat declaration/payment for online shops shipping to Norway, a VOEC (Vat On E-Commerce) portal and they expect online sellers to register there, so norwegian vat is collected by the shop and then returned to norwegian treasury. Big players like Ebay do it, I pay norwegian vat at checkout and provide a so-called VOEC number along my address, so postal norwegian customs do check and process automatically. BUT, nor Maco nor Fotoimpex want to bother with this norwegian system, which means the parcel is processed manually, which means we get billed an additional processing fee on top of the vat and it can delay the parcel also.
In order to cut this BS I just get everything sent to Sweden, happy I am so close to the border...

Yes, but now there's this lingering covid stuff, so if I drive to the border and get caught on the way back by some patrol on the small forest road, then ten-days quarantine...

Yet there's a problem with Maco: they refuse to ship the C41 kits with separate bleach and fix to Norway. Fotoimpex does; Maco have a restrictive conservative interpretation of the EU regulation which forbids regular postal airfreight of some of the chemicals used in bleach. Maco assumes that "non-EU" like Norway, means airfreight. Which is wrong for Norway, DHL freight from Berlin to Rovaniemi, Luleå, or Oslo goes the same way: surface transportation via Malmö. I had a funny exchange with Maco support telling them that they do ship to Switzerland, yet it's not EU, so they violate their own rule, to what I got answered that they have some document from Swiss Post certifying that postal parcels do not use air freight from Germany to Switzerland. This is crap, because of course there's no air freight for parcels from Berlin to Zürich no more than from Berlin to Freiburg... So if a bleach/fix kit is out of stock at Fotoimpex but available at Maco I have to get it sent to Sweden anyway.

years ago a photographer here in Norway had the C41 kit he ordered opened and inspected by customs and the police was waiting for him at the post office when he went to collect. They believe it was a narcotics kit...

eatfrog said:

I tried getting the kit from that guy but it bounced in swedish customs and got sent back to him.

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well in my case I have received the ECN-2 kit from Moskva today. No problem, usual fast processing as VOEC through incoming norwegian customs. Not opened/inspected.
It comes with mixing instructions and even a pair of gloves .