Expired Ilfochrome W/P30.2 Chem Advice.

Hi all,


First post here, however I have frequented these forums over the years and always found the conversations to be a reliable source of knowledge, and I hope this post is appropriate.


I have recently come into possession of a bunch of Ilfochrome CLM.1K paper, and a single box of P30.2 concentrate(2L of working solution), not enough to reliably process the amount of paper I have even at the best of times. I have no experience printing ciba/ilfochrome, as it's a bit before my time, and did not expect the results to be usable anyway, but was optimistic and have had one session with them.


I have found the results to be surprising all things considered, and my main question is this. Is there any way I can extend the life of the bleach and/or replenish it without more Ilford P30 chemistry? Among a few inconsistencies in my results, the one I have not been able to get past is overall fairly dark prints, I have not been able to yield any whites and can only produce dull highlights which are a far cry from what this material was capable of. Increasing the temperature of the processor (Ilford CAP40) from 34 to 37 degrees C improved this slightly, and changing the fix for fresh rapid fixer also improved the overall brightness of the prints slightly.


Aside from this, I have struggled with the colour balance a bit, but I can live with that as I can work creatively with it. I know some of you might think I'm wasting my time here, but despite these issues, they are still beautiful prints, and if any of you have some suggestions to improve them and utilize more paper with the limited amount of chemistry I have left, it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Alas Cibachrome/Ilfochrome is not forgotten, but gone nonetheless. It will be never mourned enough as every other colour print looks dull by comparison, not even to mention the digital garbage to which newbies are adapted.

To the best of my knowledge, when "paper" and/or chemicals are expired, there's absolutely nothing to do. All prints will come out weak and with terrible colour casts, which is why I completely quit buying old stocks at a point in time, and gave my few remaining stocks for free to a young fellow here who had in mind to make experiments.

I really have to praise the pictures you show here: these are by far the most beautiful pictures I've ever seen done with expired Cibachrome sets. The wise choice of subjects that are nearly monochromatic by nature and of slides that would benefit by a very low contrast print is possibly the key to get these images that are not "technically" perfect but still pleasing to look at.

Thanks Marco, your scenario with the young fellow sounds very similar to how I came to be in possession of these materials. You are right about the subject choice, I had ambitions to print a series of landscapes and quickly gave that up after a few test strips, choosing more simple subjects and colours. I suppose I will have another session and see what more I can squeeze out. I have to say I am pleased to be able to have had the opportunity to print some of my slides none the less!

LiamGanesh said:

I have to say I am pleased to be able to have had the opportunity to print some of my slides none the less!

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Yoou don't know how much I second these sentiments. Sometimes I ask myself if it was a privilege to live my life in the years in which I have lived it, as it gave me the opportunity to enjoy photography when it peaked the top, or if instead it was a mockery as I now mourn all the great things that were once easily available and will most probably never come back.

There is really no substitute for Cibachrome, nothing compares to it.

I have a question about paper.
I see black frames on my expired paper, and it's about 8 months that the frames were already blue.

There is a substitute for Ciba, even better. I was printing some today. It's called Fujiflex Supergloss and you dev it in ordinary RA4 chem. But there's a catch. You either need to make quality internegs from your chromes or start shooting color neg film. It can also be printed professionally using laser printers. Sold only in big expensive rolls, so no cut sheets. Another hurdle. But well worth it. Cheaper overall than Ciba was, and far less idiosyncratic. And I was an exceptionally good Ciba printer. But if enough amateurs would start printing on this, perhaps Fuji would consider offering it cut sheet sizes again. It also keeps well, whereas Ciba would get significant crossover and color balance shifts within just a few months after being taken out of refrigeration.

LiamGanesh said:

Is there any way I can extend the life of the bleach and/or replenish it without more Ilford P30 chemistry?

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No. You can try to make your own bleach (which few have attempted) but you'll still have expired paper so probably not worth it.

DREW WILEY said:

There is a substitute for Ciba, even better. I was printing some today. It's called Fujiflex Supergloss and you dev it in ordinary RA4 chem. But there's a catch. You either need to make quality internegs from your chromes or start shooting color neg film. It can also be printed professionally using laser printers. Sold only in big expensive rolls, so no cut sheets. Another hurdle. But well worth it. Cheaper overall than Ciba was, and far less idiosyncratic. And I was an exceptionally good Ciba printer. But if enough amateurs would start printing on this, perhaps Fuji would consider offering it cut sheet sizes again. It also keeps well, whereas Ciba would get significant crossover and color balance shifts within just a few months after being taken out of refrigeration.

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Can you tell me how I can print my velvie and astia on Fujiflex paper?

Like any other personal transition to a new medium there is a significant learning curve. Printing onto Fujiflex with color neg originals is easy. It's just a deluxe version of Crystal Archive, exposed in the same manner and then RA4 processed. When you start with transparencies instead, you either have to invert them through scanning and print using an expensive laser machine - a pro lab operation - or have to make an internegative for personal darkroom use. Easy to explain, but it takes quite a bit of patience to learn to make a high-quality internegative. Although official interneg films are now gone, excellent ones can be made using Portra 160 neg color neg film from Kodak, provided you know how to reduce the contrast of the original using unsharp masking onto black and white film. Velvia is very hard to tame, while Astia is quite cooperative.
They are various steps that have to be sequentially mastered and require precise punch and register equipment to do well. But one can begin experimenting just using some form of slide copier and registering the film manually over a light box. I work most with large format sheet film where it's much more precise to do. But in principle, you can begin with any slide film. Unfortunately, there is exactly zero literature on the web or in print to help you. But the results can actually be superior to Ciba if you take the trouble to learn the necessary steps, and the material itself is way easier to handle - far less susceptible to kink marks, finger damage, and static, but has the same rich color potential and full gloss.

Wayne said:

No. You can try to make your own bleach (which few have attempted) but you'll still have expired paper so probably not worth it.

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Yes there is. There is actually a way to get freshly mixed P30P chemistry. You should ask Christopher Burkett- he has the chems made to specs so he can continue to print on his Cibachrome stock he has.

Chris wouldn't use P30 anything, but some kind of P3 pro liquid, which actually keeps quite well, and which he's probably stockpiled. There's probably a typo somewhere in this. P30 was the amateur version that substituted sulfamic acid powder for the liquid sulfuric acid of the pro versions. But reformulation via powder would be a way of getting around hazmat shipping headaches, so maybe this could be the case. The real issue is the paper itself. Nobody is going to remanufacture it. And not only does the color balance drift, but irreversible crossover sets in. I've still got some unopened late Ciba paper that's been in my freezer the whole time; but that doesn't mean it's still any good for critical usage. I specialized in Ciba myself. Once that paper is thawed, it's a moving target, color-balance-wise. And old paper changes must faster than freshly mfg paper. For all practical purposes it's a dead medium. I saw the hand-writing on the wall and started planning for it in advance.

Thanks for all your responses, I guess I was hoping there might be some silver bullet that could replenish the bleach, but I'm not surprised there is not. I think I will just leave the Ciba behind me and continue working with and developing my skills with RA4 process materials, as until now I have only been taking my black and white work to the darkroom.

DREW WILEY said:

There is a substitute for Ciba, even better. I was printing some today. It's called Fujiflex Supergloss and you dev it in ordinary RA4 chem. But there's a catch. You either need to make quality internegs from your chromes or start shooting color neg film. It can also be printed professionally using laser printers. Sold only in big expensive rolls, so no cut sheets. Another hurdle. But well worth it. Cheaper overall than Ciba was, and far less idiosyncratic. And I was an exceptionally good Ciba printer. But if enough amateurs would start printing on this, perhaps Fuji would consider offering it cut sheet sizes again. It also keeps well, whereas Ciba would get significant crossover and color balance shifts within just a few months after being taken out of refrigeration.

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Thanks for the tip on Fujiflex Drew, I'm excited to look into it. Fortunately I already have a fairly extensive catalogue of work on colour neg film, so I have a lot to work with.

The printing speed and color balance of Fujiflex is very close to that of Fuji's other Crystal Archive products. But it is slightly higher contrast. And if you want the same richness and saturation of color as the combination of chrome film and Ciba gave, you need to either shoot a saturated color neg film like Ektar or make contrast-increase masks for more ordinary neg films like Portra. Overall, far less shots will need supplementary masking than Ciba did, so the workflow is easier. Fuji also cryptically hints that it's even more permanent than their Crystal Archive RC papers, probably because the residual dye couplers which yellow over time wash out better.

DREW WILEY said:

Chris wouldn't use P30 anything, but some kind of P3 pro liquid, which actually keeps quite well, and which he's probably stockpiled. There's probably a typo somewhere in this. P30 was the amateur version that substituted sulfamic acid powder for the liquid sulfuric acid of the pro versions. But reformulation via powder would be a way of getting around hazmat shipping headaches, so maybe this could be the case. The real issue is the paper itself. Nobody is going to remanufacture it. And not only does the color balance drift, but irreversible crossover sets in. I've still got some unopened late Ciba paper that's been in my freezer the whole time; but that doesn't mean it's still any good for critical usage. I specialized in Ciba myself. Once that paper is thawed, it's a moving target, color-balance-wise. And old paper changes must faster than freshly mfg paper. For all practical purposes it's a dead medium. I saw the hand-writing on the wall and started planning for it in advance.

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sure, Sorry for the mistake. But as far as I know Chris Burkett has a chemist or sth in the likes of that who mixes him fresh CIbachrome chemicals to use with the rest of his paper. We have a feature of his work in the recent issue of Photoklassik International and I have asked the same thing in a discussion among the other editors how he could still print if all the Ciba chemistry goes bad pretty fast, and that was the answer that was given to me. If you want to check it out, heres a link: https://photoklassik-international.com/shop/ref/23/

First of all, thank you for keeping interest in Ciba alive. But you're incorrect about Ciba chemistry. It keeps very well in unmixed concentrate form. It's the print medium that goes bad quickly. I don't know if Chris mixes up big batches of chem all at once for a replenishable big roller transport machine or does like me and uses drums, in which just enough can be mixed per session. The bleach is nasty to health, plumbing, and zoning permits. One-shot use in drums is far easier to handle because if you just drain the acidic bleach into a bucket containing some baking soda, it's instantly neutralized - no big hazmat headache. But this is largely ancient history. Chris is getting up there in age and no more Ciba is being coated. And I'm now getting equal and even better results on Fujiflex, but that took a running start.