Expired Ektachrome smell (and rated speed?)

RLangham · Sep 12, 2020

So I just got a good deal on a roll of 1985 Ektachrome 400 that's been sealed and in cold storage since the original purchase according to the seller. When I opened the carton and then the canister, there was a slight fishy smell--not nearly as strong as when I opened a canister of 60's Kodachrome (that made me tear uo) or as nasty as some old Kodacolor 120 I smelled once. Is this safe to process? If so I'm going to do homemade ersatz reversal processing with d-76 and a C-41 kit.

And slide film this old: should I shoot it at box speed? Or a little higher to underexpose a little? Or has it lost sensitivity so that it should be overexposed?

Donald Qualls · Sep 12, 2020

RLangham said:
And slide film this old: should I shoot it at box speed? Or a little higher to underexpose a little? Or has it lost sensitivity so that it should be overexposed?

The only way to be sure of this would be to shoot and process some tests -- which you can't really do with a single roll of 120, so you'll be running on a "best guess" basis. From what I've seen and read (never processed E-6 Ektachrome myself, never mind long-expired), Ektachrome is less prone to loss of speed than negative films, and color films less so than B&W. Best I can suggest is to shoot it at box speed, process through first dev and a stop bath, and then examine the film. They should look like "normal" unfixed negatives at that stage (and no harm will be done, as you'd have to light expose the film to reverse it anyway), allowing for the dye couplers and filter layer. If you have reasonable density, then just continue the process. If they're "thin", give the film a short time in dilute fixer to remove some of the undeveloped halide (this will lighten the final positives by reducing the amount of dye that forms). If they're extra dense (meaning they'll be very light on the positive), use a method that bleaches only the developed silver (dichromate, permanganate, or peroxide/acid bleach), develop in color dev, then run a rehalogenating bleach step (not blix, you want to keep the halide), re-expose, and give them another bath in the color developer to increase dye density (by roughly one stop) before finally bleaching and fixing.

Or just cross-process them as color negative, which gives you the usual leeway to adjust scan/print exposure and makes the in-camera exposure much less critical.

RLangham · Sep 12, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
The only way to be sure of this would be to shoot and process some tests -- which you can't really do with a single roll of 120, so you'll be running on a "best guess" basis. From what I've seen and read (never processed E-6 Ektachrome myself, never mind long-expired), Ektachrome is less prone to loss of speed than negative films, and color films less so than B&W. Best I can suggest is to shoot it at box speed, process through first dev and a stop bath, and then examine the film. They should look like "normal" unfixed negatives at that stage (and no harm will be done, as you'd have to light expose the film to reverse it anyway),

Ok, that makes sense. I don't care as much about my B/W developer as I do about my color kit, so that would be an acceptable risk. If it forms a negative normally during 1st dev, it should probably be safe to put in the color developer, right? I just know that there are some films that, when expired enough, will kill C-41 developer. If that were the case with this film, it'd also kill D-76, right?

Btw what are your thoughts on Dektol as the first dev? I have a lot more of it and it's a lot faster. Shouldn't matter that it's not a fine grain developer, huh?

Donald Qualls · Sep 12, 2020

In my experience with B&W reversal, I used Dektol (with some stuff added) as first developer:

First Developer:

Dektol 2+1 (two parts stock solution to one part water)
8 g/L Sodium Thiosulfate (halide solvent, to clear highlights)
4 g/L Potassium Bromide (restrainer, to prevent loss of shadow density)

I gave 12 minutes in this solution as first dev for Tri-X shot at EI 640.

Whether that has any validity as a first developer for E-6 with C-41 color dev, well, your guess is probably as good as mine. Fine grain nature of the first dev actually does matter some -- the more of the rough, high senitivity grains you develop in the first dev (and bleach away), the finer your eventual finished image grain will be. When I reversed Tri-X with this first dev, dichromate bleach, and HC-110 B second dev, I got slides that were much smoother than Tri-X negatives, even with box speed and normal process, would typically be.

As for killing C-41 or your first dev, anything that's likely to do that should be washed out in the first dev, if not in the pre-wash (which I'd definitely recommend if you have fishy smelling film). This first dev is one-shot, obviously, so as long as it does the job before it dies, it doesn't much matter if something in the film kills it -- but yes, if you get something that looks like an unfixed negative after your first dev, it should be safe (by that point, pre-wash, first dev, stop, and water wash to clear the stop) to put it into your C-41 color dev.

RLangham · Sep 12, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
In my experience with B&W reversal, I used Dektol (with some stuff added) as first developer:

First Developer:

Dektol 2+1 (two parts stock solution to one part water)
8 g/L Sodium Thiosulfate (halide solvent, to clear highlights)
4 g/L Potassium Bromide (restrainer, to prevent loss of shadow density)

I gave 12 minutes in this solution as first dev for Tri-X shot at EI 640.

Whether that has any validity as a first developer for E-6 with C-41 color dev, well, your guess is probably as good as mine. Fine grain nature of the first dev actually does matter some -- the more of the rough, high senitivity grains you develop in the first dev (and bleach away), the finer your eventual finished image grain will be. When I reversed Tri-X with this first dev, dichromate bleach, and HC-110 B second dev, I got slides that were much smoother than Tri-X negatives, even with box speed and normal process, would typically be.

As for killing C-41 or your first dev, anything that's likely to do that should be washed out in the first dev, if not in the pre-wash (which I'd definitely recommend if you have fishy smelling film). This first dev is one-shot, obviously, so as long as it does the job before it dies, it doesn't much matter if something in the film kills it -- but yes, if you get something that looks like an unfixed negative after your first dev, it should be safe (by that point, pre-wash, first dev, stop, and water wash to clear the stop) to put it into your C-41 color dev.

Hmmm... I've never really done a stop bath besides a hot water rinse, as blasphemous as that is to say. Would white vinegar work?

Donald Qualls · Sep 12, 2020

Dilute your white vinegar (5% acetic acid) 1+1 or 1+2 with water to get the same acid strength as standard stop bath.

RLangham · Sep 12, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Dilute your white vinegar (5% acetic acid) 1+1 or 1+2 with water to get the same acid strength as standard stop bath.

Oh, cool. I just have to be sure to rinse the h*ll out of it before second dev, huh? A drop of that stop would kill my C-41 developer for aure.

Lachlan Young · Sep 12, 2020

RLangham said:
When I opened the carton and then the canister, there was a slight fishy smell--not nearly as strong as when I opened a canister of 60's Kodachrome (that made me tear uo) or as nasty as some old Kodacolor 120 I smelled once.

Sounds a lot like Methylamine from the breakdown of some component or other.

RLangham · Sep 12, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Sounds a lot like Methylamine from the breakdown of some component or other.

So how badly compromised is it liable to be then? Color shifts? Or ruins my developer? Or fails to develop?

Donald Qualls · Sep 12, 2020

RLangham said:
Oh, cool. I just have to be sure to rinse the h*ll out of it before second dev, huh? A drop of that stop would kill my C-41 developer for aure.

A drop of 1.7% to 2.5% acetic acid would do virtually nothing to your color developer. What would kill the dev, in this case, is pushing the pH down too far. Since C-41 color dev is supposed to run (IIRC) about pH 10.6 and is fairly well buffered, you could probably go straight from the stop bath to color dev (with concomitant carry over of 5+ ml of stop) without harming the color dev (though you probably wouldn't want to do that every time you use the color dev up to its listed capacity of 8-16 rolls, depending on manufacturer). An Ilford wash (fill tank, invert 5 times, dump; fill tank, invert 10 times, dump; fill tank, invert 20 times, dump) would be more than needed, and can be done in a couple minutes. Most likely a single rinse with matched-temp water would be sufficient.

Rowreidr · Sep 12, 2020

RLangham said:
Ok, that makes sense. I don't care as much about my B/W developer as I do about my color kit, so that would be an acceptable risk. If it forms a negative normally during 1st dev, it should probably be safe to put in the color developer, right? I just know that there are some films that, when expired enough, will kill C-41 developer. If that were the case with this film, it'd also kill D-76, right?

Btw what are your thoughts on Dektol as the first dev? I have a lot more of it and it's a lot faster. Shouldn't matter that it's not a fine grain developer, huh?

Recently been testing XPro reversal with some 19 year old Ektachrome dupe film, shot 1 stop over. HC-110 A (1+15) at 107F 6:40. You want something strong to make the mask, hc110 and dektol seem to be the most commonly used. I went a little warmer than usually because one fellow on YT mentioned he had better results adding a few degrees for expired slide. For the C41, I had some chemicals that had been through 14 rolls. Times started at 6:00 for roll #15 and 7:00 for roll #20 (6 rolls of e6), also at 107F. For blix, I went with 20-30 mins, 100-105F. E6 base apparently needs much longer c41 blix times. I rinsed film for about 45 mins (Ilford technique first then quick rinse every 10 mins until the blix smell was gone. Plan on doing a comparison with proper E6 when I have fresher chemicals.

In terms of your stinky film, maybe do a few prewashes.

RLangham · Sep 12, 2020

Rowreidr said:
Recently been testing XPro reversal with some 19 year old Ektachrome dupe film, shot 1 stop over. HC-110 A (1+15) at 107F 6:40. You want something strong to make the mask, hc110 and dektol seem to be the most commonly used. I went a little warmer than usually because one fellow on YT mentioned he had better results adding a few degrees for expired slide. For the C41, I had some chemicals that had been through 14 rolls. Times started at 6:00 for roll #15 and 7:00 for roll #20 (6 rolls of e6), also at 107F. For blix, I went with 20-30 mins, 100-105F. E6 base apparently needs much longer c41 blix times. I rinsed film for about 45 mins (Ilford technique first then quick rinse every 10 mins until the blix smell was gone. Plan on doing a comparison with proper E6 when I have fresher chemicals.

In terms of your stinky film, maybe do a few prewashes.

Alright, I'll take your advice thoroughly. I think 3-1 Dektol is in order, and prewashing will be no trouble.

Rowreidr · Sep 12, 2020

RLangham said:
Alright, I'll take your advice thoroughly. I think 3-1 Dektol is in order, and prewashing will be no trouble.

Just be aware. I overcook (time/temp) both my developments compare to the "norm". Doing so apparently brings up contrast. Being that the duplicating film is very low contrast, seems to work out for me. Your results may vary.

Here is a nice summary from someone who has much more experience than I.

https://filmandtubes.tumblr.com/post/175065123616/x-pro-reversal-perfected

RLangham · Sep 12, 2020

Rowreidr said:
Just be aware. I overcook (time/temp) both my developments compare to the "norm". Doing so apparently brings up contrast. Being that the duplicating film is very low contrast, seems to work out for me. Your results may vary.

Here is a nice summary from someone who has much more experience than I.

https://filmandtubes.tumblr.com/post/175065123616/x-pro-reversal-perfected

Well, I got a good deal on this film, so I'm going to try fairly conservative figures on the development times and temps, and if that doesn't work to my standards I'll increase the time on my next roll. I found a source on some more recently expired Ekta at comparable prices so I think I might be shooting it regularly for a while. I think I'll do both reversal in Dektol and C-41 and Xpro in C-41 and see which I like more.

I will take your advice, which I heard before from someone else, and blix it for a long time, in any event.

Lachlan Young · Sep 13, 2020

RLangham said:
So how badly compromised is it liable to be then? Color shifts? Or ruins my developer? Or fails to develop?

Colour shifts are probably a given, but it'll likely develop. Difficult to pin down exactly what will have degraded over time to create the smell of a commonplace organic chemistry building block, given that there a number of components it could have been used in.

RLangham · Sep 13, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Colour shifts are probably a given, but it'll likely develop. Difficult to pin down exactly what will have degraded over time to create the smell of a commonplace organic chemistry building block, given that there a number of components it could have been used in.

It developed somewhat. First dev was too thin... my fault, only gave it four minutes in 3-1 Dek. Second Dev was correspondingly thick and largely bereft of details. Didn't bleach after twenty minutes so I tossed it. I'll know better next time and also I'll get newer Ekta--probably order a roll of brand new E100.on Monday. I just hope my color developer is ok.

Lachlan Young · Sep 13, 2020

RLangham said:
It developed somewhat. First dev was too thin... my fault, only gave it four minutes in 3-1 Dek. Second Dev was correspondingly thick and largely bereft of details. Didn't bleach after twenty minutes so I tossed it. I'll know better next time and also I'll get newer Ekta--probably order a roll of brand new E100.on Monday. I just hope my color developer is ok.

I'd strongly suggest using an actual E-6 kit - the mismatch between the film using couplers designed for CD-3 developer (E-6) and a CD-4 developer (C-41) isn't going to help colour form as it should (hue shifts) or colour stability - see here for full details. Of course, there's nothing to stop you running E-6 films in C-41 if you want the cross processed look.

Expired Ektachrome smell (and rated speed?)

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