Expired Cine Kodachrome II advice.

Well, I was saving this for I don't know what, but with the recent infamous announcement, I might as well break into this. In the picture are the expiration dates of the 16mmm Kodachrome II reels, and the super 8 cartridge. Do you think these will work? What can I expect? Should I adjust my exposure?

IIRC that film is probably K-12 process and is not compatible with K-14.

PE

Kodachrome II can't be processed for color results, as they require process K-12, not the current K-14. If you decide to shoot them, you can only get B&W results (negative or positive).

The one on top that says "KMA" should work, though. That's Kodachrome 40, process K-14.

Well, as I said before, Kodachrome is not Kodachrome. It has had a variety of processes and dye sets over the years giving different color renditions and different image stability to heat, light and humidity.

Best of luck.

BTW, one of the early workers who I shared an office with and who, I think, did some Kodachrome work years and years ago was E. A. Smith. Probably EASmithI.

PE

Your film is not compatible with the current and only K14 process. It cannot be processed as color film. Your only option (and since you haven't exposed this film yet, probably not an option for you), would be to have this processed as a b/w negative. Since you haven't exposed it yet, you would get better b/w results shooting real b/w film in your 16mm camera.

I repeat, there is NO WAY to get color movies out of this film at this date and time.

Just out of curiosity, what would happen if this film were to be put through a k-14 process? Would the emulsion not be able to withstand the temperature?

I don't remember if the final K-14 process included the prehardener as in the patent, or if they added the new hardener to the coating, so the result would vary. If the process had a prehardener, then you would get some sort of image, but I'm not sure what it would be like. If the prehardener is not there, and the emulsion is not hardened, then you will mess up Dwaynes process totally and you will get clear film. No image and no emulsion.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

I don't remember if the final K-14 process included the prehardener as in the patent, or if they added the new hardener to the coating, so the result would vary. If the process had a prehardener, then you would get some sort of image, but I'm not sure what it would be like. If the prehardener is not there, and the emulsion is not hardened, then you will mess up Dwaynes process totally and you will get clear film. No image and no emulsion.

PE

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So you don't think it's worth shooting a roll and sending to Dwaynes? I don't want to screw up anybody's anything, but I really want to shoot it right.

*edit*

How badly screwed up is screwed up?

I'm sure Dwaynes would not think of putting K-12 through K-14...as has been pointed out many times, it's just not the same process. I'm sure that they wouldn't risk a the stripped emulsion wrecking their chemicals and everyone else's films...it would be a costly way of giving you a roll of blank leader.

Personally, I'd put the films on Ebay, see if anyone wants them as a collectors item.

EASmithV said:

So you don't think it's worth shooting a roll and sending to Dwaynes? I don't want to screw up anybody's anything, but I really want to shoot it right.

*edit*

How badly screwed up is screwed up?

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I really don't know!

However, if the emulsion does come off, the process is "down for the count" and will need replacement of all affected solutions, probably the first few at least.

They surely have safeguards for this.

PE

I'm not familiar with the processing workflow at Dwaynes, but if in fact the film manages to make it past the safeguards and screw up the machine, is there any possibility that it might destroy someone else's film? I would be willing to give it a try, but I refuse to risk someone else's films.

EASmithV said:

.....but I refuse to risk someone else's films.

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Then throw it away. Forget using it.

If it had been possible to put KII through the current K-14 process then it would have already been done as there was a lot of unprocessed film around even after the switch & the final final shut down of all K-12 processing which was quite sometime later.

Ron, (PE) would probably know but I suspect that K-12 was a lower temperature process, as were all early colour processes until C41 & E6 in the 70's, K25/K64 and the K-14 process were part of the new breed of colour films and although entirely different in approach almost certainly benefited from the same research that lead to overall improvements in hardening emulsions, and in emulsion technology.

Just like you can use much lower temperatures to process a C-22 film through C41 shemistry, or E3/4 film through E6 it's vaguely possible that a KII film could go through K-14 processing, but only by altering the process temperature & time & no-ones going to risk it. Colour was poor when processing older films in C41/E6 as the dyes aren't formed properly.

Processing early non E6/C41 films will ruin other subsequent film if put through a commercial lab neg processing machine, which may then require a major strip down & clean. It's quite likely that KII would do the same to Dwaynes K-14 line.

Ian

K-12 film was hardened with Formaldehyde and Mucochloric acid AFAIK and was a 75 degree process. The original K-14 process was 85 degrees with the same hardener + a prehardener as used in E-4. I believe this was changed to use the new hardener. IDK the process temperature of the final K-14 as I was well out of the loop by then.

All I know is that a K-12 film in a K-14 process creates a mess of emulsion coming off the support in the rem-jet removal step and subsequent steps until it is all removed leaving a clear support and pieces of emulsion floating in the tanks of solution.

However, the K12 films can be processed in B&W solutions. They can also be processed to give reasonable B&W positives in a normal B&W process. Query DR5 for this. If the process is at 68 degrees, it should work.

PE

Back in the mid-1980's, I was given a stack of exposed K-II films from the estate of a distant relative. I asked Kodak UK about processing, and they advised (even then, 20+ years ago) that there was no way of getting color images, K-12 having been discontinued some years before that.

They gave me the address of an independent lab who could process as a B&W negative, but, when I enquired, the cost was prohibitive (IIRC it was a pro movie lab). We knew the films were only holiday-type movies, nothing of great interest or historical value, and I think in the end we dumped the films.

Personally, I wouldn't waste effort and processing costs trying to shoot Kodachrome II at the stage.

Photo Engineer said:

However, the K12 films can be processed in B&W solutions. They can also be processed to give reasonable B&W positives in a normal B&W process. Query DR5 for this. If the process is at 68 degrees, it should work.

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Dear Photo Engineer, please let me thank you first for all the extremely informative posts I've read from you in the last years.

As I have a very old KII double-8mm cine film that I couldn't have had developed by Kodak back in the eighties, I am very interested in this sentence of yours. Could you please expand? Is there anyone offering a b&w reversal developing service (by mail) suitable for KII double 8mm film? If anyone already did it, I'd prefer to pay him rather than try the process for the first time by myself with this precious film I've kept for all these years.

Thank you.

To understand "why" one has to understand basic differences between b/w films and color films. B/W films have always been designed to "work" with conventional b/w chemicals. These basic developing and fixing agents were standardized a century ago, and even though there are infinite variations they still work in basically the same way. The developer converts the exposed silver haliade to metallic silver in proportion to the films exposure to light, and the fix removes all the undeveloped silver. This concept has never changed.

Color films, on the other hand have been re-engineered from scratch many times. New dyes were developed over time, new color couplers, etc. It has not been possible to make newer, better, improved color films with better dye stability compatible with older processes. It has also not been possible to make older color films compatible with current processes. Until the introduction of Kodaks C-41 negative process and E-6 color slide process, all manufacturers had their own unique color film processes. It is not just Old Kodachrome that cannot be processed in current Kodachrome chemistry, but in essence ALL color films prior to the current color film processes cannot be processed for optimum results, or in most cases any results. Since color negative and Ektachrome (type) processes are vastly more simple in processing than Kodachrome, some custom labs are willing (for a price) to custom mix and keep chemistry to process the older consumer films made prior to C-41 and E-6. Kodachrome is a different beast. It is probably the most complex color film process ever engineered. Doing small quantity processing, ever so often, of obsolete Kodachrome has never been economically feasable. Also, the older color negative and color slide processes (other than Kodachrome) can be done in simple tanks with inversion agitation, and no big investment in specialized equipment. Kodachrome, on the other hand has always required very specialized automated processing equipment to process, and these machines are all dismanteled and mostly scrapped.

Marco Gilardetti said:

Dear Photo Engineer, please let me thank you first for all the extremely informative posts I've read from you in the last years.

As I have a very old KII double-8mm cine film that I couldn't have had developed by Kodak back in the eighties, I am very interested in this sentence of yours. Could you please expand? Is there anyone offering a b&w reversal developing service (by mail) suitable for KII double 8mm film? If anyone already did it, I'd prefer to pay him rather than try the process for the first time by myself with this precious film I've kept for all these years.

Thank you.

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Thank you as well. I try.

In this case however, although I know it can be done, IDK how well it can be done and who will do it on any reasonable basis. I suggested DR5 as one possible lab that might, but any Cine lab might do it as well, as long as the process is at 68F and they have a means to remove the rem-jet.

In any event, they may have to play with the process to get the best results unless they have done it before and have a table worked out for the various color films that they might get.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Thank you as well. I try.

In this case however, although I know it can be done, IDK how well it can be done and who will do it on any reasonable basis. I suggested DR5 as one possible lab that might, but any Cine lab might do it as well, as long as the process is at 68F and they have a means to remove the rem-jet.

In any event, they may have to play with the process to get the best results unless they have done it before and have a table worked out for the various color films that they might get.

PE

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I contacted DR5, and he told me "for Kodachrome contact Dwaynes"... :rolleyes:

Anyway, he did tell me that DR5 wont do rolls over 30 feet long as they are not a true cine lab.

If DR5 can process B&W cine film to produce positive images, and if he can handle rem-jet, he should be able to handle Kodachrome. Maybe he thought you meant as a color product????

PE