Experimenting - LPD vs PF106 on multiple papers

[esearing]

I did some testing this weekend with Photographers Formulary 106 developer. It is an old Ansco formula that is reported to create brown tones on older papers without need for toner. It doesn't do that for modern glossy papers but it still has some properties that are different than my standard developer Ethol LPD. I tested the two developers on Ilford MGFB Classic and MGFB Warm Tone, and Bergger CB variable contrast warm tone. For those interested in such things you can read about it on my website: http://www.searing.photography/testing-lpd-vs-pf106/
http://www.searing.photography/testing-lpd-vs-pf106/
I would be interested if anyone else has used PF106 with matte papers or hand coated materials and gotten the advertised brown tone.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I didn't read the whole thing, but from what I gleaned you are using the developers much to strong if you want really warm tones. Dilute them.

 

[esearing]

I have tried LPD down to 1:8 but it merely slows down the development and takes longer to achieve black. It does not produce a brown tone. The likely culprit is the different makeup of modern papers containing hydroquinone as a stabilizer and not having whatever chemistry the old cloro-bromide formulas contained. PF106 indicates to use 1:7 to 1:15 (for papers such as Opal or Ektalure which are no longer made). I had hopes for the Bergger paper since it bills itself as CB paper.

Also "Warm" isn't the same as the brown I am seeking. Warm is a duller black/gray that doesn't lean toward blue. "Soft" would be a better term for what many paper tones become when using warm tone developers. I am looking for a color shift toward brown without using toners. Selenium is a bit too reddish or purple depending on paper.

 

[mshchem]

I have tried LPD down to 1:8 but it merely slows down the development and takes longer to achieve black. It does not produce a brown tone. The likely culprit is the different makeup of modern papers containing hydroquinone as a stabilizer and not having whatever chemistry the old cloro-bromide formulas contained. PF106 indicates to use 1:7 to 1:15 (for papers such as Opal or Ektalure which are no longer made). I had hopes for the Bergger paper since it bills itself as CB paper.

Also "Warm" isn't the same as the brown I am seeking. Warm is a duller black/gray that doesn't lean toward blue. "Soft" would be a better term for what many paper tones become when using warm tone developers. I am looking for a color shift toward brown without using toners. Selenium is a bit too reddish or purple depending on paper.

If you want warm tones. First use your Ilford VC warm tone FB paper. LPD has Hydroquinone and Phenidone for developing agents NO METOL Dilute 1:2 or 1:3. Develop for 2 minutes at 20 C. After fixing, if you want beautiful BROWN tones, I use Kodak Rapid Se toner 1:3 (Yes 25% solution) diluted with Kodak Hypo clearing agent. If you tone for 3 - 4 minutes you will get beautiful rich brown tones.
If you use ILFORD Classic paper you will get rich Blacks not Brown.

Ilford Art 300 and Ilford Warmtone papers give fabulous brown tones with Selenium toner. I use Se strong because that's how Kodak recommended using it back in the day, If you use it at 10% it will do the same just takes a bit longer.

I don't know of a developer/paper combination today that will produce a true brown tone without a toning bath. Sepia is overkill for me, Brown toner works well but stinks!

I still have a stash of Ektalure, the stuff was magical, but not as magical as modern VARIABLE CONTRAST Ilford paper.

My humble opinion, Best Wishes, Mike

 

[esearing]

Selenium creates a red-brown to milk chocolate brown on Ilford MGFB WarmTone, and Ilford Art, when I use selenium at 1:5. MGFB Classic turns purple-ish when fully toned.
What I am seeking is more the color of dark chocolate or etching brown. I have seen examples of it in older prints so it may be a matter of finding the right toner + paper + developer combinations.
I'll try the LPD more dilute again and see if it effects color tone after toning.

 

[mshchem]

Selenium creates a red-brown to milk chocolate brown on Ilford MGFB WarmTone, and Ilford Art, when I use selenium at 1:5. MGFB Classic turns purple-ish when fully toned.
What I am seeking is more the color of dark chocolate or etching brown. I have seen examples of it in older prints so it may be a matter of finding the right toner + paper + developer combinations.
I'll try the LPD more dilute again and see if it effects color tone after toning.

Eric, You have got me thinking. I dug out a bunch of stuff I did in 1983, in my twenties. I was experimenting with the famous Edwal 106 "The auto toning developer" Edwal made Glycin, and marketed it under trade name Monazol. This is what Edwal said, At a dilution of 15:1 Edwal-106 produces the so-called "gravure-brown” tones on enlarging papers. Edwal recommended increasing exposure by 3 to 8 times. I guess you turn the enlarger on and go to lunch . I remember fiddling around making my own 106, never really got anything other than soft results.

I did get some really brown and red to orange tones on Kodak Medalist and Ektalure papers with multiple toners processes. I'm looking at my book of prints, Medalist in Edwal 106 1:7, followed by Kodak Sepia toner, then followed by Edwal Gold Sulfocyanide toner made a rich brown. It's a lot of screwing around but it's fun.

Maybe I will try to repeat some of this with modern papers.
Good discussion.
Best Mike

 

[esearing]

Mike - I read similar info regarding Edwal. The PF106 formula is mostly glycin instead of Hq compared to the Ansco 130 formula. What is missing is the old slow cloro-bromide papers which is why it was likely suggested to expose for long periods of time.
For Sepia I plan to try a 10parts thiourea to 30ml activator to see if that darkens the sepia enough without going purple. There is also a formula of Hypo Alum with Potassium Iodide that is supposed to work but no description of sepia tone.
I also plan to try a 1990s bottle of KRST to see if it has a different characteristic with age.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Old Agfa Viridon might be an option if it is still made. IIRC it was a combo of Selenium and a Sulphide used in a weak dilution. You would get brown that was fairly neutral. Not purple or plum like Selenium toners sometimes go, and not yellow like Sepia toners tend towards.