Experiences on Paterson print washers?

radiant · Sep 19, 2021

I've decided to get a paper washer. I've been eyeballing Paterson washers from Fotoimpex.

I could wash most of my prints with the 24x30 washer, but it has following text:

"The 30x40 washer is of better-quality construction than the 24x30 washer, as the water comes in at the bottom of the washer and is driven upwards through a channel."

The 30x40 washer is double expensive compared to 24x30 so I'm not tempted to buy it otherwise than if it is really better..

Does anyone have experiences on either one or both?

30x40 washer: https://www.fotoimpex.com/darkroom/paterson-printwasher-30x40-cm.html?cache=1632059448
24x30 washer: https://www.fotoimpex.com/darkroom/paterson-print-washer-24x30-cm.html?cache=1632059448

mshchem · Sep 19, 2021

These washers require a lot of water. The rocking motion only works with running water at reasonably high flow rates.

mcfitz · Sep 19, 2021

Yes, hate them. Getting the rocking motion to work well and consistently was pretty much impossible.
And I wasn't the only person using it who found this, it was at the shared darkroom I go to.
It was finally replaced with a different washer, that does work.
Others might have better experience with them and can explain how to make the #&!* thing work as specified.

oh another thing that never worked was the system that is supposed to automatically empty the damn thing. I always resorted to bailing out the tank with a two litre measuring jug.

radiant · Sep 19, 2021

Good insights, thanks guys. I need to consider two times.

This video shows a quite small flow rate and rocking motion working:

I would probably buy this just because of the pool and the holders. I don't know if I would need the rocking motion. Maybe put circulating pump so the flow could be stabilized?

radiant · Sep 19, 2021

Even fotoimpex addresses what you wrote:

"A thin trickle is sufficient for the prints to stay in motion. Consequently, you can leave the photos in the washer even overnight and use only a few liters of water.

The downside of the vent is that, if you use insufficient water pressure, the basket won't rock, and with too much the hose will fly off the water faucet. Some customers have removed the vent alltogether and just used the natural water circulation within the washer. Rocking the basket a few times by hand will also work."

radiant · Sep 19, 2021

One hack solution, purchase the basket separately and use some plastic box as pool:

https://www.fotoimpex.com/darkroom/paterson-replacement-basket-for-washer-30x40-cm-ptp-233.html

mcfitz · Sep 19, 2021

The washer in the video is not the same as the one I've used and which is pictured at Fotoimpex in a very significant way. The difference in the video is there seems to be a rail with a mechanism that does rock the basket. So it looks like the company has tried to improve and solve the problem.

That looks to be more sophisticated than the one I know that is unreliable, and which is pictured at Fotoimpex.

getting just the basket with the slots and adapting for it might work, you'd at least know you had to resolve the situation for yourself in some way.

before, I would use the plastic drying racks for RC paper, weight them in a deep sink, run a hose under that and fill the sink. Then the prints would have water rising from the bottom and overflowing from the top in the sink overflow drain. It was a constant water flow and worked quite well. And really, that's what counts, that the system works and doesn't have to be overseen and adjusted all the time.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 19, 2021

Boy, my experience with these washers in not nearly as negative as some here.

I have and use two 11x14-inch (that would be the 30x40 cm version) Paterson washers all the time. Mine are older models with the clear housing, but seem to be basically the same as the ones in the links above. I got mine for cheap on eBay though

I find that getting the basket to rock is not only no problem, but that it requires very little water flow. I can see that it might be a problem if you don't have an adequate regulating valve on your washer inlet. I have a nice ball valve on mine that allows me to find the right flow rate easily. Rigging something up to control inlet pressure should be easy.

The weakness in the washer design, as I see it, is that water comes in at only one corner and then is supposed to be distributed by the rocking basket. I don't trust that at all, so I have rigged up another hose with small holes along its entire length to fit over the top of the washer. I hook this to a separate water feed and let it drip into the washer, thereby feeding water in from the top as well. I turn the basket once during print washing and roughly the halfway point (30 minutes) to make sure the far corner from the water inlet isn't neglected. And, at that point, I drain and refill the washer as well. I use the washers for all my prints up to 11x14 inches.

Draining the washer works pretty well using the built-in siphon feature, but often I'll speed it up by adding another siphon hose. A half-inch ID hose drains along with the built-in siphon drains the washer in just a couple of minutes.

I routinely test for adequate washing using the Kodak HT-2 test; my prints pass with flying colors.

Best,

Doremus

radiant · Sep 19, 2021

@Team ADOX can you help us? Do you have the "new" version (?) shown on the video or the old one which raises some thoughts here

edit: wrong username..

NB23 · Sep 19, 2021

I own two of the “30x40” variety. Love them.

I love it because, first of all, it fits inside my Sink.
It can contain a lot of prints. It is very deep and contains a lot of water which is a plus for a proper wash; basically the prints see their fixer content quickly diluted by the good amount of water.

Two things: I don’t mess with the silly insert. And I don’t mess with the silly hose. I simply insert my own hose inside of the washer, sometimes only an inch or two deep, sometimes more, and I let it overflow. The water overflows from the top as well as from the bottom hole. The overflow creates a good water circulation.

Also, since the washer is deep and fits into my sink, I often dip my hands into it and move around the prints. All in all, very convenient.

Also, I can quickly empty it completely or half by tilting it into my sink, thanks to its narrow base (footprint), for a faster clean water cycle.

All in all, totally great.

NB23 · Sep 19, 2021

I will add:

This washer is also the best for any darkroom without running water. The 30x40 version can be filled to half and serve as a holding bath effectively covering 8x10 prints entirely (and filled to 3/4, entirely covering 11x14 prints).
Then, thanks to its cleverly thought out dimensions, it is easily transportable to any sink across the house where you can easily spill out the water with the prints still inside. And then you can proceed to wash the prints by just inserting a hose inside, directly from the top.

Also, what facilitates it as a water holding bath is its very small base (footoprint). It takes less space than a tray. And it is easily portable without spills.

ah yeah, I forgot: I was up to 50 8x10 rc prints in it. And about 40 fb prints. I can easily turn them upside down during the washing process. I don’t use the insert, I simply dip my prints back to back, some vertically and some horizontally.

A totally great washer. Where were you when they were available for 20$ on ebay?

Lachlan Young · Sep 19, 2021

They're simple, cheap and do the job. They may not be the most water-use efficient or be the fanciest looking or have the biggest capacity, but if you print to a maximum of 9.5x12 or 11x14 then they're worthy of serious consideration. Use hypo clear and common sense and they're perfectly capable of delivering a sufficient wash.

Maris · Sep 19, 2021

I've used the same Paterson Major 12x16 (actually 12x15 in truth) print washer for about 30 years. It takes 24 8x10s (end on, two rows of 12) which is the most I can do in one darkroom session. Once the water flow is adjusted just right the basket rocks reliably.

I've added a clockwork garden tap-timer to the faucet that feeds the washer. After the hypo-clear stage I load the washer, set the tap-timer to 45 minutes, and let the thing work unsupervised until it shuts off automatically. The prints then go on drying screens and that's that.

Water usage is about 80 litres which costs me about 20 cents; by far the cheapest ingredient in the whole darkroom cycle.

bdial · Sep 20, 2021

I have the 30x40 clear version, like Doremus's, like his, mine came used from ebay for cheap. I gave up on getting the rocker to work, and removed it, substituting a bulkhead tubing fitting. Aside from that, as other folks have mentioned, it works ok, and is cost-effective compared to the much more expensive plexiglas archival washers.

Philippe-Georges · Sep 20, 2021

I have the 30x40cm and it works rather well, the rocking works well too but needs an attentive fine tuning of the tap.
When tested with Kodak's fixer residual test, everything looks good (FB paper), even with the IFORD washing method applied (H.C.A. and 10 min in 20°C running water)...

radiant · Sep 20, 2021

So many experiences here, nice!

I'm in between the smaller and larger.. I can easily wash 30x40 in tray as usually those are only few but on other hand one night prints on 8x10" and smaller could then fit into wash.

Dali · Sep 20, 2021

I used 2 small Paterson print washers.

The first one (old model made of clear plastic) works flawlessly for years until it broke.

I replaced it by a new version (opaque plastic) having its share of trouble. Sometimes (like last week), it has no issue and works like it should for the entire (60 minutes) washing session. Other times, it stops rocking the prints without warning. I suspect that the build quality is way lower than it were...

What would I do if I had no print waher? Paterson or not? Well, I would certainly hesitate.

tih · Sep 21, 2021

Here's a test of archival washing performance that may be of interest:

Doremus Scudder · Sep 21, 2021

There are some good things in the video, but also a good bit of misinformation. Plus, her results seem to indicate that one needs 90 minutes to adequately wash a print, which doesn't agree with my experience or the recommendations from any of the major manufacturers. And, she doesn't seem to use a wash aid before washing, which is an indispensable step with fiber-base papers if one wants to optimize washing.

Better and easy is to do your own testing. Test once with both tests for residual silver (fixing) and residual fixer (washing) to find the limits of your system. Add a safety factor and then test the last print through the fix and the washer regularly as a control.

Best,

Doremus

NB23 · Sep 21, 2021

I own and love my Zone VI washer, but here and there I take out the paterson when I work with RC papers. Just more convenient to dip my hand into it, throw in smaller format papers, turn the papers upside down, and so on.

Here is a view from above my paterson washer, which stands into my deep sink.

What you see are 18 8x10 prints standing vertically. The sheer waterflow makes them separate, and which seems to be excellent circulation. On top and bottom of the image you see the water overflowing. There is a hole at the bottom of the washer which makes water circulate from the bottom and is driven up, this limits the water’s top limit and prevents overflowing, a very simple and clever design.

On the left of the image, just below the white vent, is my black hose that I have dipped about 4 inches in.

I sometimes agitate the hose inside the washer and move the prints around with it, this helps with washing and keeps my hands dry.

ChuckP · Oct 2, 2021

I picked up one of the smaller 10x12 versions. The rocker doesn't seem to work no matter how the water flow is set. Filling the washer I noticed that water comes out one side of the plastic inlet part along the bottom edge. I don't think this is normal but thought I'd ask. The plastic inlet part has some obvious glue along the top and sides but none on the bottom. Water only comes out the one bottom side. I noticed some comments on B&H about having to glue down this part on washers bought new. Wondering if the inlet part needs a water tight fit on all sides for the rocker to work correctly. Also what does that vertical channel under the inlet piece supposed to do? I don't see any water flowing out of it so assume it's needed for the rocker system to work.

Note the larger version looks like it has a different system.

radiant · Oct 3, 2021

Thanks @ChukP for the review. I'm constantly looking at the larger washer more and more ..

Even Fotoimpex kinda addresses what you have written: " The 30x40 washer is of better-quality construction than the 24x30 washer, as the water comes in at the bottom of the washer and is driven upwards through a channel."

AgX · Oct 3, 2021

I was not even aware of that sliding action, I once just saw in the Paterson catalog that tank with inserts and did not investigate further...
But nonetheless they still offer their ancient (and much cheaper) tray washers.
Any comments on this ancient system?

radiant · Oct 3, 2021

AgX said:
I was not even aware of that sliding action, I once just saw in the Paterson catalog that tank with inserts and did not investigate further...
But nonetheless they still offer their ancient (and much cheaper) tray washers.
Any comments on this ancient system?

Can you name few much cheaper washers and non-ancient systems?

AgX · Oct 3, 2021

Well, my stuff is 2nd hand anyway, so I am not well informed. The classic european washers produced either a vortex (horizontally or vertically) or they had the water running in a horizontal stream over the prints. At least one vortex washer (Kindermann) had a sieve above the bottom, thus forming a kind of sump with the outlet.

Experiences on Paterson print washers?

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