Excited I got my first MF folder -- but there are issues

[Andrew Patteson]

I had been looking at getting a folder for a while now, probably because I spend too much time reading threads here.

There are so many choices, but I decided on a few criteria and started thinking a Konica Pearl III might be just right. Then I saw (the clearly very wise) Donald Q. mention the Pearl III in some random thread and decided it was meant to be. Haha.

I got one from Japan. Excellent with five plusses. Oh boy. Some cosmetic issues visible but nothing that bothered me much. The optics are in good shape. But...

I've never had a folder before -- is this kind of wobble on the lens normal? Maybe it is? The standard that is attached to the folding arms is solid, but the lens wobbles inside that when you adjust shutter speed or focus. (link to a quick 12 second video)

And shining a flashlight into the bellows reveals at least 6 different spots that the light shines through -- several of them I can see even with the room light on.

So, what would you advise? I could return it but would have to pay for return shipping. Is every folder of this age likely to have leaky bellows?

Thanks all.

 

[OrientPoint]

I have a Konica Pearl III. It's a great camera.

It's not normal for the lens to wobble like that. You should be able to fix it by tightening up the retaining ring that holds the lens to the lens board, accessible within the bellows. A lens spanner can be used, or even just hand tightening in a pinch.

If the bellows are swiss cheese then I'd send it back. You can try patching them with electrical tape, or "liquid electrical" tape, or any of the other remedies you'll find mentioned on the internet. For one or two pinholes I'd go that route. However, if there are many holes, and they're large, then the bellows are likely shot and you're just going to have more and more problems as time goes on. I don't know that Pearl III bellows are readily available. I've never seen them for sale, at least.

Good luck!

 

[OrientPoint]

Also: the bellows are often a weak spot on this type of camera. That said, my Pearl iii has no problems, and it was bought from a random seller on Ebay. My other folders have had at most a handful of pin holes that are repairable. It's not a problem to find cameras of this vintage with good bellows. You were just unlucky.

 

[wjlapier]

If the lens is super sharp like a Voigtlander Perkeo I would fix the lens wobble and replace the bellows. I don’t know the camera you bought but I have several folders one being the Perkeo II. Fantastic lens.

Check with Jurgen Kreckel to see if he can replace the bellows. Ask Sandeha Lynch too. Sandeha has made bellows for my Fujifilm GX680IIIS, and replaced bellows on several small folder cameras. Excellent work but you’ll have to ship to England.

 

[shutterfinger]

With the bellows extended slightly tighten the shutter retaining ring on the back of the shutter. You will need to have the back open. The retainer ring will have two notches 180° apart or 4 notches 90° apart. Its standard right hand threads, turn to the right to tighten.
Set the shutter to 1, cock the shutter, position so you can see the shutter blades and a clock second hand at the same time. Release the shutter just as the second hand reaches a minute/second mark. The shutter should instantly open then close just as the second hand reaches the next second mark. Set the shutter to 2 (half second) and repeat. The shutter should open then close when the second hand is half way between the second marks. 1 second tolerance is the second hand width either side of the second mark, half second tolerance is 1/2 the width of the second hand either side of the center point between the second marks.
Return the camera if the shutter speed are slow as a shutter CLA is $125 to $150 + shipping both ways.
If you decide to keep it go to your local artist supply/hobby store and get some Golden Heavy Body Acrylic Artist Paint #1040 Carbon Black and an inexpensive fine bristle artist brush. Dilute the paint no more than 1:1 then paint the inside of the bellows at the light leaks/thin spots with two or three thin coats of the diluted paint. The paint needs to fully cure between coats, overnight is usually adequate. The paint dries flexible and does not flake or peel off. I have painted pin holes and the cameras are still light tight 10 + years later.
Never use tape on a bellows as it will come off and leave a sticky residue that is difficult to remove. An alternative is Tulip ebony fabric paint.

 

[Andrew Patteson]

Wow, thank you all! Great information in these replies.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I think you've gotten the necessary information on the lens rotating in the standard. Steve O'Nions (YouTuber) likes the Pearl III a lot, but he's also happy to spend money on putting his used equipment into top shape, and has a semi-local repair shop. I mentioned it mainly because it's one of the more common 6x4.5 coupled RF folders (others, like the Super Zenobia, are so uncommon as not to have a single example on eBay most of the time). Whether it's worth spending money beyond the purchase price is up to you -- many users here will tell you they're used to sending every "new" folder they acquire, even much more modern used equipment, off for a CLA before they attempt to use it.

I agree with the above, also, in that a bellows with a few pinholes can be repaired on a reasonably permanent basis for little cost, but if there are lots of holes or they're large, a new bellows is in order -- and that's likely to be expensive, because most of the smaller folders weren't designed to make it easy to replace bellows, and replacement parts have been gone for decades, so you're looking at someone making a new bellows to fit, and installing it.

The other side of all this is, if you once get a camera like a Pearl III fully working and in good condition, you'll have a top quality camera you can carry around in a jacket pocket. I love my Zenobia (not least because it's barely bigger than a 35mm RF folder, and lighter, yet has three times the negative area), and I'm sure I'd love it more if it had a single window coupled rangefinder. I certainly enjoy my 6x6 RF folders (Super Ikonta B and Mamiya 6), even though they're quite a bit bigger than a Pearl or Zenobia.

 

[Wayne]

5 thumbs up for another Exc +++++ camera from japan with 5+ holes in the bellows. I didn't discover that my leaks were from the bellows until the return period was up. If I had, I would have demanded a refund or credit for the cost of the bellows. However gaffers tape has seemingly fixed my leaks so you could try that too. Its good stuff and doesn't look ugly.

 

[OrientPoint]

This is spot on. The Pearl iii is not rare. Examples come up for sale all the time, and are not particularly expensive. Why fiddle with custom made replacement bellows or attempted repairs rather than simply wait for a good example? Sending the camera to Kreckel el al is like to cost more than what you spent on the camera in the first place.

If you were stuck with this camera and return was not an option, then I'd definitely try to repair the bellows myself. The odds are good it'll work ok, at least for a while. But if you can send it back, take advantage and spin the wheel again. The Pearl is definitely worth owning. It's very compact, has a good viewfinder, is fun to use and takes great photos.

 

[Dan Daniel]

And shining a flashlight into the bellows reveals at least 6 different spots that the light shines through -- several of them I can see even with the room light on.

If it has that many holes, it will keep developing holes.

Send it back.

Talk to Ebay about getting the seller to pay postage. If it wasn't as described, you have rights.

And never buy something from Japan with less than 8 plus marks. I thought everyone knew this.....

 

[removedacct1]

You were duped. Send that piece of junk back. What Dan said is accurate. There isn't anything remotely "excellent +++++" about a camera in that condition. Shameful.

 

[grat]

I don't know why anyone pays attention to the "[Ex++]" gibberish on the auction title. Read the description-- it's usually pretty accurate with the Japanese sellers.

If the camera is mechanically smooth, and optically clean, then the bellows are worth replacing. Does it make sense financially? That's up to you. Reality is, film photography in general doesn't make a whole lotta sense financially.

 

[Wayne]

I don't know why anyone pays attention to the "[Ex++]" gibberish on the auction title. Read the description-- it's usually pretty accurate with the Japanese sellers.

If the camera is mechanically smooth, and optically clean, then the bellows are worth replacing. Does it make sense financially? That's up to you. Reality is, film photography in general doesn't make a whole lotta sense financially.

I don't think anybody really pays attention to or takes the +++++ crap seriously. We mention it for the amusement and irony factor.

Many of the ads don't mention presence or absence of bellows leaks and I'm not sure they can always be blamed. Yeah in some cases a simple test can show them up, but in others, like my recent purchase, it took a great deal of time and patience and 100% of the leaks could only be seen by looking inside the camera while shining an extremely bright light on the outside of the bellows, and even still it took me a while to find more and more leaks. A seller simply isn't going to go to that length in most cases.

 

[Huss]

I would file a complaint w ebay and insist that the seller pays for shipping. Cuz he basically scammed you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I used to think that buying from Japan was just caveat emptor with respect to the "excellent level" and the real information was in the description. But then two weeks ago, I got a Mamiya 6 (Good condition...I should have known). There were noted scratches and dents in the body, but it said it was functional and optical system was "very good" with "a little" fungus and haze. I said OK I can clean that off, and then I should have a nice working Mamiya 6 with Zuiko lenses, shipped to my door by DHL for only $60 all in!

Fast forward 5 days and the camera arrived. I am very happy because it came so quickly! But then I see that the lenses have perhaps the worst case of fungal etching I have ever seen (and the front element is loose, so I know the seller tried to clean it off and couldn't). It could not be farther from "a little" haze. There are holes in the bellows. The leatherette is falling off. An honestly awful condition camera where the only saving grace is a working shutter.

Anyways I typed up this rant to say that even if you read the description on some Japanese eBay listings you can still get a terrible camera. The sad thing is, there are some sellers who do a great job describing their cameras but it's impossible to know before you buy which kind of describer you will be getting.

 

[Huss]

Anyways I typed up this rant to say that even if you read the description on some Japanese eBay listings you can still get a terrible camera. The sad thing is, there are some sellers who do a great job describing their cameras but it's impossible to know before you buy which kind of describer you will be getting.

When I tried to buy a Fuji GW690III from Japan via ebay, the description did not match what was sent. Seller said clear vf, no fungus, no dust. What I received - twice - was the opposite.
I have had great experiences in the past, but it seems now that there are too many sellers chasing too many sales with a limited supply of decent equipment now.
I recently read a bit written by Bellamy from Japanesecamerahunters, and the jist of it is that it is really hard to find decent gear now at decent prices.

 

[removedacct1]

I've seen some terrible looking cameras in Japanese listings, and the description almost always includes "near mint" or "excellent ++++++" or similar in the description. Cameras with rust showing, leatherettes falling off, parts missing, conspicuous fungus in the lenses, or chips out of the front glass, etc. I've seen this sort of thing far too often, so I've stopped looking at listings from Japan entirely.

 

[Wayne]

A little more research and you would have discovered that the better 6's are running close to 200 bucks. All of the ones under 100 to 150 have lots of problems. That becomes obvious when you look at enough of them. I paid 220 for mine and it still had more fungus than was mentioned (it all cleaned off and I haven't noticed any problems from the slight edge etching, yet) and as mentioned the bellows had holes.

Admittedly one shouldn't have to research for a few weeks to figure this out like I did, but its the reality.

I used to think that buying from Japan was just caveat emptor with respect to the "excellent level" and the real information was in the description. But then two weeks ago, I got a Mamiya 6 (Good condition...I should have known). There were noted scratches and dents in the body, but it said it was functional and optical system was "very good" with "a little" fungus and haze. I said OK I can clean that off, and then I should have a nice working Mamiya 6 with Zuiko lenses, shipped to my door by DHL for only $60 all in!

Fast forward 5 days and the camera arrived. I am very happy because it came so quickly! But then I see that the lenses have perhaps the worst case of fungal etching I have ever seen (and the front element is loose, so I know the seller tried to clean it off and couldn't). It could not be farther from "a little" haze. There are holes in the bellows. The leatherette is falling off. An honestly awful condition camera where the only saving grace is a working shutter.

Anyways I typed up this rant to say that even if you read the description on some Japanese eBay listings you can still get a terrible camera. The sad thing is, there are some sellers who do a great job describing their cameras but it's impossible to know before you buy which kind of describer you will be getting.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A little more research and you would have discovered that the better 6's are running close to 200 bucks. All of the ones under 100 to 150 have lots of problems. That becomes obvious when you look at enough of them. I paid 220 for mine and it still had more fungus than was mentioned (it all cleaned off and I haven't noticed any problems from the slight edge etching, yet) and as mentioned the bellows had holes.

Admittedly one shouldn't have to research for a few weeks to figure this out like I did, but its the reality.

Yeah, I know the going rate. I thought I was getting a bargain. Instead I got the classic lesson that there is no such thing as free lunch!

 

[grat]

I've had pretty good luck with the japanese sellers, but I tend to buy from the larger ones, and ones I've done business with before. Negative reviews have a major effect on sellers these days, so don't be afraid to document the problems, leave negative feedback ("not as described"), and return the item.

I have also found that certain Mamiya lenses (the C series 135mm f/4.5 in particular) are susceptible not just to fungus-- but permanent etching.

 

[beemermark]

"With the bellows extended slightly tighten the shutter retaining ring on the back of the shutter. You will need to have the back open. The retainer ring will have two notches 180° apart or 4 notches 90° apart. Its standard right hand threads, turn to the right to tighten."

All you need to do, probably loosened in shipment. Use a pair of long nose scissors to tighten the lens retaining ring. No 60 year+ camera is likely to perfect. There is liquid rubber you can buy (used mostly for electrical coatings) that dries to a soft rubbery non-transparent seal. Use a drop of that on the pin holes.

If you decide to return just file a return ticket with eBay. The seller has to provide a return label. On a recent $80 electrical item I bought from a seller in NJ it was non-working. File an eBay ticket and the seller was in China Said they couldn't provide a return label. Complained to eBay and they simply credited me the $80 without me even needing to return it.

 

[xya]

I have 3 of these cameras, all bought from japan with no issues. they are marvellous cameras. send yours back and get another one. you will not regret it. none of my bellows are weak. I have made a page about this camera at https://www.120folder.com/pearl_iii.htm

obviously I'm lucky with sales from japan. most sellers were honest in their description, to read with care. forget about the plusses. I buy a lot from japan. if there was an issue, the seller has refunded me and paypal payed the shipping to japan.

 

[Wayne]

Yeah, I know the going rate. I thought I was getting a bargain. Instead I got the classic lesson that there is no such thing as free lunch!

I almost bit on a few bargains myself! If the lens is good and everything else but the bellows is good, then 60 bucks would indeed be a bargain. My camera overall was in pretty good shape so I've come to the conclusion one must expect bellows holes on most 70+ year old folders and pay (less) accordingly.

 

[shutterfinger]

How many of you actually read the listing for the camera the OP bought? Let me guess 0.

https://www.michaels.com/golden-heavy-body-acrylic-paint-2oz/M10196523.html and https://www.michaels.com/super-value-25pc-brush-set-by-artists-loft-necessities/10503498.html less than a roll of gaffers tape that will leave a residue and come off in a few years and adds thickness to the bellows which may cause closing problems on some cameras.

I bought a D800 from Japan, accurate description. It took me a few weeks and searching the seller's ebay store to find it. Always ask for more pictures if the listing doesn't show what you want to know. Low price = poor quality/heavy wear on cameras.

 

[grat]

How many of you actually read the listing for the camera the OP bought? Let me guess 0.

I like a good challenge. I'm reasonably certain I did find the listing (Lens #1771087), and after reading the description and looking at the pictures, I have to admit, I'm not sure I would have bought this particular camera. It's very close, but I would lean towards sending it back.

The bellows are in poor shape-- the reason I'm certain I found the listing is because it has the tape on the second pleat from the lens. The retaining ring that holds the shutter in place, is in bad shape. The leatherette is cracked and peeling in multiple places (not uncommon). There are a couple of marks on the front lens that probably won't make a difference, but... Compared with other recent sales, I've seen better.

I'm so used to my Bessa, I assumed the focus was done with the front cell-- but there's a helical in the middle of your lens/shutter assembly, and either it's not mounted correctly, or the helical has a problem. I'm not familiar enough with the construction.

Compare:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ACYAAOSwvaNgLSaP/s-l1600.jpg

with this:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OKQAAOSw3iBfwdMU/s-l1600.jpg

I think the difference in price between what you paid, and what a better condition camera would cost, is far less than what you would spend fixing this one. Having to pay reverse shipping would be a factor, though.