excessive fog and beutler's 105

Leon · Nov 11, 2006

I've just mixed up some Beutlers 105 as per the Darkroom Cookbook formula, and given it a try.

I've over developed slighlty, no big problem, but I've also got excessive fog (it's 120 film but looks like 35mm with the antihalation layer at double strength). Being a bit dim, I'm not too sure of the cause, I think it is because the sodium carbonate solution (B) must be too strong ... but I definately followed the formula:

Solution A - metol 10 grams, Sodium Sulphite 50 grams (to make 1 litre)

Solution B - sodium carbonate, anhydrous 50 grams (to make 1 litre)

and i used it at 20 degrees, 1:1:8

has anyone else had this trouble? Is it worth me trying 1:0.5:8 ... I know, without seeing it, it's hard to say, but what kind of over use of the sodium carbonate would cause so much fog? , I dont really want to waste a virtually whole litre of the B bath if I can get away with it. Is there any other reason for the fog (it's definitely not light fog)?

Perhaps I should I dump it and mix up some d76H instead

Gerald Koch · Nov 11, 2006

Your formula is correct and if your mixing was also correct then I would blame the film. You didn't mention what film you were using. It should be a slow or medium speed film and not something like Tri-x. I have never experienced fog with this developer. However, Willi Beutler did say that 5 -10 ml of a 1% solution of potassium bromide could be added to 500 ml of the working solution. Such an addition would tend to lower fog.

Two other points to remember. You should strive for the thinnest possible negative that has good shadow detail. The other point is too never use this developer above 20 C. You are OK on this point, however.

jim appleyard · Nov 11, 2006

Is Beurter's 105 an older formula? Perhaps it was designed with the older, thicker emulsions of the day in mind and with today's thinner emulsions, there is too much carbonate??? Just speculating.

Gerald Koch · Nov 11, 2006

jim appleyard said:
Is Beurter's 105 an older formula? Perhaps it was designed with the older, thicker emulsions of the day in mind and with today's thinner emulsions, there is too much carbonate??? Just speculating.

Yes, the formula appeared in Beutler's book published in 1961.

However, formulas of this type (also including FX-1, FX-2, and numerous others) are designed to work on the emulsion surface and are therefore not dependent on emulsion thickness.

BTW, the number 105 should not be included in the name. This is merely the number of the formula in the Anchell book. It is not part of the formulas name and you will not see it used before Anchell's book was published.

Leon · Nov 11, 2006

Gerald Koch said:
BTW, the number 105 should not be included in the name. This is merely the number of the formula in the Anchell book. It is not part of the formulas name and you will not see it used before Anchell's book was published.

Thanks for your comments.

Gerald, the developer is formula #31 in Anchell's book. He puts the number at the end of the developer title (eg Formula 31: Beutler's High Definition Developer 105). if it isn't part of the name in the same manner as "crawley's FX1" I wonder why he has done this???

The film I'm testing is fp4 exposed at 125. as you say, I developed at 20 degrees. I've just done some test printing (I dont have a densitometer) ... I shot 9 frames from zones i to ix. In trying to work out maximum black time from Fb+f, I used the unexposed space between the zone ii and iii shots. The fog levels on the clear film area actually had more density than the zone ii and iii frames! very strange.

Gerald Koch · Nov 11, 2006

Dilute developers, like the Beutler cause a compression of any film's tonal range. This is a consideration when using any zone system.

Surface developers, like the ones mentioned generally produce about a 1 stop increase in film speed which should be taken into account.

Then I don't know where the 105 came from. Perhaps it is extra baggage picked up from the net. Traditionally, it did not appear in the name and I wouldn't use it. You will not see it in older books or articles.

Tom Hoskinson · Nov 11, 2006

Leon said:
Thanks for your comments.

Gerald, the developer is formula #31 in Anchell's book. He puts the number at the end of the developer title (eg Formula 31: Beutler's High Definition Developer 105). if it isn't part of the name in the same manner as "crawley's FX1" I wonder why he has done this???

The film I'm testing is fp4 exposed at 125. as you say, I developed at 20 degrees. I've just done some test printing (I dont have a densitometer) ... I shot 9 frames from zones i to ix. In trying to work out maximum black time from Fb+f, I used the unexposed space between the zone ii and iii shots. The fog levels on the clear film area actually had more density than the zone ii and iii frames! very strange.

Leon, you wrote: if it isn't part of the name in the same manner as Crawley's. I wonder why he has done this???

Ask Anchell, there are a lot of typos and other errors in the Cookbook.

I recommend using Crawley's FX-2

Leon · Nov 11, 2006

thanks Tom - the problem is getting hold of some glycin in the uk ... and I wouldnt begin to know where to source pinacryptol yellow!

The grain in the negatives from the beutler HD is really nice though - ... it would be a shame to give up on it already.

Tom Hoskinson · Nov 11, 2006

Leon said:
thanks Tom - the problem is getting hold of some glycin in the uk ... and I wouldnt begin to know where to source pinacryptol yellow!

The grain in the negatives from the beutler HD is really nice though - ... it would be a shame to give up on it already.

Leon, did you try adding some potassium bromide to your Beutler? That should lower the fog level. And, if adding potassium bromide doesn't do it, adding some Benzotriazole should.

Pinacryptol yellow can be omitted from FX-2 with little or no penalty.

dancqu · Nov 11, 2006

Leon said:
I've just mixed up some Beutlers ...
Solution A - metol 10 grams, Sodium Sulphite 50 grams
(to make 1 litre)
Solution B - sodium carbonate, anhydrous 50 grams
(to make 1 litre)

I've used Beutler's and found it very potent. As for the fog,
perhaps that film is susceptible. I don't recall any problem.

For a big batch of FX-1 make that 100 grams of sulfite.
Your B solution will go twice as far. Or just use the A of
FX-1 as a 10 - 100 formula D23 and save the carbonate
for compounding your next print developer. Dan

nworth · Nov 12, 2006

As I recall, the Beutler formula was originally recommended for Adox KB14 and KB17, which were relatively thin emulsion films. The dilute developer and surface development helped control the contrast of these early thin emulsion films. With modern films, I have had fog with this formula. I could almost always blame it on the film (old), but it seems to happen more easily with the Beutler developer.

Tom Hoskinson · Nov 12, 2006

I've had no fog problems developing Efke 25 (the current version of KB14) in Beutler and I did not need to add any KBr.

Leon · Nov 13, 2006

I have some KBr on order, so I'll feedback my finding here. Just to confirm, a 1% solution is 1g KBr per 100ml water - right? (I failed miserably in chemistry at school)

dancqu · Nov 13, 2006

Leon said:
Just to confirm, a 1% solution is 1g KBr per 100ml water - right?

Wrong. Solute plus solvent equals solution. Solutions
used in photography are percent solutions. Percent solutions
in the greater world of chemistry are most often not. I doubt
percents are even taught in school.

In your example, after all is said and done, the solution
volume is to be 100ml. A gram won't make much difference
but what if it were 25 grams for a 25% solution? Dan

Leon · Nov 13, 2006

dancqu said:
Wrong. Solute plus solvent equals solution. Solutions
used in photography are percent solutions. Percent solutions
in the greater world of chemistry are most often not. I doubt
percents are even taught in school.

In your example, after all is said and done, the solution
volume is to be 100ml. A gram won't make much difference
but what if it were 25 grams for a 25% solution? Dan

Dancqu - thanks for taking the time to reply, but you just confuse me further. If it's clear to you that my understanding of this is wrong, maybe you could help me out by answering the question rather than just posing another? Of course, you are under no obligation to answer any question I post, but a response like that isnt really worth the energy you used to type it in the first place!

If it's specifics that you want - If I want to make a 1 percent solution of KBr - how much KBr do I add to a given amount of water (say 500ml)?

thankyou.

BarryWilkinson · Nov 13, 2006

Leon,

I believe that you should add 1g of KBr to slightly less than 100ml of water. When the KBr has dissolved, top up to 100ml. This will give you a 1% w/v solution.

Barry

Leon · Nov 13, 2006

thanks Barry - that's exactly what I wanted to know This science stuff is hard! It's a struggle when all I want to do is make pictures that look how I want them to.

dancqu · Nov 13, 2006

Leon said:
If I want to make a 1 percent solution of KBr -
how much KBr do I add to a given amount
of water (say 500ml)?

We don't know. Off hand I don't think there is any
way of knowing. We don't make % solutions by adding
some chemical to some specific "given" amount of solvent.
A 1% solution of volume 500ml does though contain 5 grams.
Some amount of solute dissolved in some solvent volume
is not correct. In some Solution volume is correct.

Formulas often include the instruction "water to make ...".
Water to make 1 liter is a common solution volume. Note,
it is "water to make ..." so much Solution. We don't know
or need to know how much water we add but do bring
the volume up to some specified level.

Consider this; if 20 grams of some solute were added
to 100ml of some solvent what would be the solution's
volume? It may be without exception the rule
is " WATER TO MAKE ... " Dan

marcsv · Nov 13, 2006

A large amount of restrainer (KBr) may retard development excessively and indicate an apparent loss of speed, while too little may permit development of fog. Be aware of the amount that you use.

dpurdy · Nov 13, 2006

Hello, Beutlers is my standard developer and if you mixed it like you said then there should be no problem as I use it with quite a few different films and don't get any fog or base fog. I do however add potassium iodide to my formula as is sometimes recommended. You add to part A, 50ml .oo1% potassium iodide. Yes that is a very very small amount but it is very effective in enhancing the adjency affect, which greatly increases the impression of sharpness.

If you are getting fog then you have got something going wrong somewhere. I have used this developer for many years and never had that problem using either tap water or distilled water.

Ole · Nov 14, 2006

dancqu said:
Consider this; if 20 grams of some solute were added to 100ml of some solvent what would be the solution's volume? It may be without exception the rule is " WATER TO MAKE ... " Dan

To find out, you need to know the density of the solute. That can be found in tables, in MSDS sheets, and quite often on the label of the bottle. But that is the difficult route - the "add water to make" is far simpler!

I've got a few rolls of KB25 which gave very high fog levels. They are equally printable, but need exposures in the 45 second range where I would usually use 12 seconds. One of thouse rolls was developed in Neofin Blau, one in Rodinal. So it's the film, not the developer that is to blame.

Leon · Nov 14, 2006

iot's interesting that others have used fp4 plus with no fog - maybe it was scontamination from unclean containers that I keep the developer in (although I do clean them thoroughly. I'll mix up some more and put in new containers and see how I get on then.

Leon · Dec 11, 2006

ok - I've remixed it all, clean new glass bottles, added 10ml of 100% solution of Kbr. Still getting very heavy fog on unexposed film with 120 FP4+ (I've not tried other films) The film edges and spaces have more density than the shadow values of the exposed areas. Anyone know of why this might occur?

alexphoto · Dec 15, 2006

Hi Leon
How fresh is your fix? Exhausted fix can look like fog, especially if it's a milky purple colour.

Leon · Dec 15, 2006

Hello alex, thanks for your contribution. This is fog , not poorly fixed negs. It has a definite grainy grey density which extends into some of the shadow areas of the frames.

excessive fog and beutler's 105

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