• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Exausted fix for Paper.... Any simple test?

feeling grey

A
feeling grey

  • 0
  • 0
  • 25
Inconsequential

H
Inconsequential

  • 2
  • 0
  • 38

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
201,800
Messages
2,830,393
Members
100,961
Latest member
pisimimail
Recent bookmarks
0

IngMacca

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
37
Location
Italy
Format
Multi Format
Hi everyone,
Is there a simple way to undertand if your fix chemicals used for paper is near the end of its life?
In my test what I can see is that when the develop is nearly exausted the fix still works well... However on data sheets I see that they have more or less the same amount of paper before exaust...

Thanks a lot!
 

Halford

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
120
Location
Wageningen, NL
Format
4x5 Format
I've never tried them but you can use something like Ag-Fix test strips:
http://www.mn-net.com/tabid/10488/default.aspx

They give a convenient-looking readout of the amount of silver in your fixer, which is an indication of how near-exhaustion it is.
I know that AG Photographic in the UK sell them, and I'm sure they can be found elsewhere in Europe too.
 
OP
OP
IngMacca

IngMacca

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
37
Location
Italy
Format
Multi Format
Thanks for the answer! Yes I read about them!
I was wondering if some other way exist, similar for example to film test for fix in development...
I tried to fix a white paper and check that with light it remains very white, but I'm worried about long term behaviour..
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
do this test, no purchases necessary.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

do a baseline test when the fixer is unused/fresh. it doesn't take a lot of fixer to do the test and don't put it back in the tray you
use for your prints, like cats and dogs film in print fix will not be good.
lets say your baseline (fresh fix) clears a scrap lead of film in 30 seconds when it takes 60 seconds your print fix is spent.
dispose of it safely.
 
OP
OP
IngMacca

IngMacca

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
37
Location
Italy
Format
Multi Format
Thanks! You mean to use the film test also for paper?
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
yes, use the clip test to test the print fixer.
it is just a measure of how much silver is in the fixer ( what makes fixer "spent" )
when there is a lot of silver in there, it takes longer to "clear" the scrap of film
i do it a little different than matt described. i don't do a drop in the middle
i just take some fix out and see how long it takes to clear i guess it is 6 vs 1/2 dozen.
you need to use the same film though whenever you test your fixer, different films are made
with different amounts of silver so using ilford panF for one test and ilford 3200 for another will give you
a false read.
have fun!
 

tedr1

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
940
Location
50 miles from NYC USA
Format
Multi Format
These fixer test strips named "Ag Fix" are inexpensive and simple to use they report the condition of the fixer, pH value and silver content. They are made in Europe by Macherey-Nagel GMbH & CO. KG


90741pic.jpg


 

darkroommike

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,738
Location
Iowa
Format
Multi Format
The silver estimating papers are a good way to go, the various iodide based "hypo" check solutions will only tell you that your fixer is already bad, sort of a post crash "collision alert". I simply use a tally mark for each 8x10 print on my fixer bottle. I use two fixers for fiber base and one for RC papers. For RC I use the same first fixer that is part of my two bath fixer system. Capacity is 20-25 8x10's per quart, I make that as 100 prints for a gallon. When the first fixer reaches that mark I promote the second bath to first fixer and mix a new second fixer bath. I first make tally marks on a piece of scrap paper, in columns for the different sizes and then at the end of the day, transfer the marks to the jug.
 

Gerald C Koch

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
8,131
Location
Southern USA
Format
Multi Format
The silver estimating papers are a good way to go, the various iodide based "hypo" check solutions will only tell you that your fixer is already bad, sort of a post crash "collision alert". I simply use a tally mark for each 8x10 print on my fixer bottle. I use two fixers for fiber base and one for RC papers. For RC I use the same first fixer that is part of my two bath fixer system. Capacity is 20-25 8x10's per quart, I make that as 100 prints for a gallon. When the first fixer reaches that mark I promote the second bath to first fixer and mix a new second fixer bath. I first make tally marks on a piece of scrap paper, in columns for the different sizes and then at the end of the day, transfer the marks to the jug.

+1

Easy to do and you need not buy anything extra. Also works for film fixer. I use two labels, one states that it is film/paper fixer and the other is for tally marks. The second label is replaced for fresh fixer.
 

bence8810

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
377
Location
Tokyo
Format
Multi Format
Funny you say that, in Japan it's the opposite. Fixer is the most expensive solution when bought in bottles.
Still pretty cheap overall but from all 3 (Dev/Stop/Fix) is the most expensive.

I buy the concentrates by the liter, they all cost more or less $10USD per liter.
Developer i mix 1:9 and Stop 1:50. On the other hand, fixer is mixed 1:4. All instructions as per the bottle, these are local products all made by Chugai.

What's even worse with your suggestion is the waste. Why throw away chemicals when they still had some life left in them? It either goes down the drain or needs to be recycled, either way is a waste.

Just my 2 cents...
Ben
 

Patrick Robert James

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jul 31, 2012
Messages
3,417
Format
35mm RF
Funny you say that, in Japan it's the opposite. Fixer is the most expensive solution when bought in bottles.
Still pretty cheap overall but from all 3 (Dev/Stop/Fix) is the most expensive.

I buy the concentrates by the liter, they all cost more or less $10USD per liter.
Developer i mix 1:9 and Stop 1:50. On the other hand, fixer is mixed 1:4. All instructions as per the bottle, these are local products all made by Chugai.

What's even worse with your suggestion is the waste. Why throw away chemicals when they still had some life left in them? It either goes down the drain or needs to be recycled, either way is a waste.

Just my 2 cents...
Ben

I didn't say fix was the cheapest, I said it was cheap relatively....

So basically, $2.50 a liter for your fix mixed at 1:4. How much does the paper cost you? That means it is the equivalent of two sheets of 8x10 paper. Two! You will run many more than that through the fix so if you are using old fix, many prints can be compromised. Worse suggestion? Think again. Use the fix once, and throw it away. There is an old expression- "penny wise and pound foolish."

But then again, what the heck do I know.
 

pdeeh

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Messages
4,770
Location
UK
Format
Multi Format
Use the fix once, and throw it away. There is an old expression- "penny wise and pound foolish."

Throwing away something that can be reused many many times perfectly effectively strikes me as pretty foolish.

But then again, what the heck do you know?
 

mnemosyne

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
759
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Do yourself a favor and only mix fixer for the session you are about to have. Throw it away afterwards. I never save diluted fix. When you get right down to it, fix is really cheap.
Throwing away something that can be reused many many times perfectly effectively strikes me as pretty foolish.

+1 What a wasteful behavior. Plus, buying fixer cheaply is one thing, getting rid of it in a ecologically responsible way another. For some of us it means paying for every single kilogram, for some of us at least using time and fuel to deliver the stuff to some local special waste facility. But then, I suspect, there are some who simply pour it down the drain ...
 

miha

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,037
Location
Slovenia
Format
Multi Format
In my test what I can see is that when the develop is nearly exausted the fix still works well...

Thanks a lot!

What sort of test?
 

miha

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,037
Location
Slovenia
Format
Multi Format
Do yourself a favor and only mix fixer for the session you are about to have. Throw it away afterwards. I never save diluted fix. When you get right down to it, fix is really cheap.
+1
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
Do yourself a favor and only mix fixer for the session you are about to have. Throw it away afterwards. I never save diluted fix. When you get right down to it, fix is really cheap.

yeah that is a good idea for some folks, but for others they want to use it until its used up, and a 1" scrap of film leader tells if its used up.

I fix a white paper and then check that it remains white if exposed to direct light
poorly fixed film and paper sometimes dont' reveal themselves for a long time,
not minutes in room light.

my fix method is with strong fixer ( sprint speed fixer ) 2:8 and i use 2 baths ( as darkroomike described )
1/2 the time in the 1st bath, and 1/2 the time in the 2nd bath.
fresh 1-shot fixer is a good idea though, and i have been giving it serious thought.
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Messages
3,675
Location
Eugene, Oregon
Format
4x5 Format
IngMacca,

Your test is not adequate to determine if the paper has been fully fixed. Unfixed compounds in the paper will have a degrading effect much later...

And, despite what many say, the clip test isn't really adequate for paper, especially if you are processing fiber-base paper and trying to process for optimum permanence. The acceptable dissolved silver level in fixer for film is much higher than for paper processed for optimum permanence. The silver test strips also only start to indicate after a single fixing bath has reached or gone past its minimum level of dissolved silver for optimum permanence. They would, however be useful for two-bath fixing regimes, for film fixer and for processing to less than optimum permanence.

To answer your question then: There is really no "simple" and accurate way of determining fixer capacity for paper, particularly when processing for permanence. The whole issue of adequate fixing is more complicated, but worth learning about.

There are, however, a couple of methodologies that will ensure good fixing for paper without going to a lot of trouble.

The first is simply to keep track of the number of prints you put through your fixer and then follow the manufacturer's recommendations for throughput.

Unfortunately, there are a couple of different standards out there that confuse the issue. The less-stringent method often called "general purpose" or "for commercial use" or something similar, and assumes a less-than-maximum print lifespan. In other words, prints processed "for commercial use" are not processed for optimum permanence; that's a different standard. The capacity numbers given are often for "commercial" standards, not "archival" ones. We need to be sure that the capacity numbers we use are for the degree of permanence we desire.

I assume, since you are in Italy, that you are using Ilford or Tetenal products. I recommend highly that you get the Ilford tech sheet on Rapid Fixer and read it carefully, especially the sections on two-bath fixing and silver concentration. The document is here: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

Note that Ilford's "commercial standard" is 40 8x10 prints per liter, but that that drops to 10 8x10 prints per liter for "optimum permanence." Here's the quote from the top of page 4, second column in the section on silver concentration: "For prints that need maximum stability for long term storage a the maximum silver level in
the fixer should not rise above 0.5 g/l i.e., approximately 10 20.3 x 25.4cm (8 x 10in) prints [per liter]."


If you fix using a single fixing bath, and wish your prints to last as long as possible, then stick to the 10 8x10s per liter capacity. Or, alternately, you can opt for two-bath fixing (which I use and recommend). With this method, you can use the first bath up to the 40 8x10s per liter (of bath one) since the relatively fresh second bath completes the fixing process. The process is described in the Ilford document.

If you wish to take the next step, it involves getting into process control a bit. The idea is to test your fixed and washed prints for residual silver (adequate fixing) and residual hypo (adequate washing). There are a couple of easy-to-make or find test solutions for this: ST-1 (Kodak's Silver Test 1) or selenium toner for determining safe levels of residual silver and HT-2 (Kodak's Hypo Test 2) for determining if the fixer has been adequately washed from the print. Using them is not all that complicated, but this post is long enough already. If you're interested, search here for more posts from me and others on the subject.

Best,

Doremus
 

BMbikerider

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
3,038
Location
UK
Format
35mm
Whilst not quite the same, I practise replenishment in the ratio of every 800 Square inches of paper which equals 10 x 10"x8" sheets of paper or equivalent, at the end of a printing session I replenish the fixer with 100cc of new. I adopted this when I started RA4 developer for colour prints. The replenishment rates for the developer, stop bath and bleach/fix are all replenished at the same rate as above. I have not had a failure due to over used chemicals either B&W or Colour. (Paper is the expensive stuff, not chemicals.)
 

mnemosyne

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
759
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
IngMacca,

Your test is not adequate to determine if the paper has been fully fixed. Unfixed compounds in the paper will have a degrading effect much later...

And, despite what many say, the clip test isn't really adequate for paper, especially if you are processing fiber-base paper and trying to process for optimum permanence. The acceptable dissolved silver level in fixer for film is much higher than for paper processed for optimum permanence. The silver test strips also only start to indicate after a single fixing bath has reached or gone past its minimum level of dissolved silver for optimum permanence. They would, however be useful for two-bath fixing regimes, for film fixer and for processing to less than optimum permanence.

To answer your question then: There is really no "simple" and accurate way of determining fixer capacity for paper, particularly when processing for permanence. The whole issue of adequate fixing is more complicated, but worth learning about.

There are, however, a couple of methodologies that will ensure good fixing for paper without going to a lot of trouble.

The first is simply to keep track of the number of prints you put through your fixer and then follow the manufacturer's recommendations for throughput.

Unfortunately, there are a couple of different standards out there that confuse the issue. The less-stringent method often called "general purpose" or "for commercial use" or something similar, and assumes a less-than-maximum print lifespan. In other words, prints processed "for commercial use" are not processed for optimum permanence; that's a different standard. The capacity numbers given are often for "commercial" standards, not "archival" ones. We need to be sure that the capacity numbers we use are for the degree of permanence we desire.

I assume, since you are in Italy, that you are using Ilford or Tetenal products. I recommend highly that you get the Ilford tech sheet on Rapid Fixer and read it carefully, especially the sections on two-bath fixing and silver concentration. The document is here: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

Note that Ilford's "commercial standard" is 40 8x10 prints per liter, but that that drops to 10 8x10 prints per liter for "optimum permanence." Here's the quote from the top of page 4, second column in the section on silver concentration: "For prints that need maximum stability for long term storage a the maximum silver level in
the fixer should not rise above 0.5 g/l i.e., approximately 10 20.3 x 25.4cm (8 x 10in) prints [per liter]."


If you fix using a single fixing bath, and wish your prints to last as long as possible, then stick to the 10 8x10s per liter capacity. Or, alternately, you can opt for two-bath fixing (which I use and recommend). With this method, you can use the first bath up to the 40 8x10s per liter (of bath one) since the relatively fresh second bath completes the fixing process. The process is described in the Ilford document.

If you wish to take the next step, it involves getting into process control a bit. The idea is to test your fixed and washed prints for residual silver (adequate fixing) and residual hypo (adequate washing). There are a couple of easy-to-make or find test solutions for this: ST-1 (Kodak's Silver Test 1) or selenium toner for determining safe levels of residual silver and HT-2 (Kodak's Hypo Test 2) for determining if the fixer has been adequately washed from the print. Using them is not all that complicated, but this post is long enough already. If you're interested, search here for more posts from me and others on the subject.

Best,

Doremus

All true, but we do not even know if the OP uses FB or RC paper ...
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Messages
3,675
Location
Eugene, Oregon
Format
4x5 Format
All true, but we do not even know if the OP uses FB or RC paper ...

True, I'm talking about fiber-base paper here, but fixing for both is essentially the same method with the same issues. Two-bath fixing will work for RC and film as well as for fiber-base paper. It's the washing step for fiber-base paper that is significantly different.

Doremus
 
OP
OP
IngMacca

IngMacca

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
37
Location
Italy
Format
Multi Format
Thanks everyone for the answers. I think the easiest way is simply keeping track of the numbers and sizes of paper :wink:
Another (small) question: if I understood well the only advantage of using two baths fix is keeping the fixing effect almost the same all through the different sheets...,
because the "average" effect is nearly the same... Right?
 

darkroommike

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,738
Location
Iowa
Format
Multi Format
Paper strength fixer has a capacity of 20-25 8x10 prints per liter, so mixing it for a session and then discarding it is doable, I'll often do as many as 20 prints in a session.
 

darkroommike

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,738
Location
Iowa
Format
Multi Format
Thanks everyone for the answers. I think the easiest way is simply keeping track of the numbers and sizes of paper :wink:
Another (small) question: if I understood well the only advantage of using two baths fix is keeping the fixing effect almost the same all through the different sheets...,
because the "average" effect is nearly the same... Right?

Not quite, the first bath does all the "heavy lifting", in the process the fixer converts the unexposed silver halides into a series of argentothiosulfates, there are four different different argentothiosulfates (I'll just call 'em by products, easier to type), two are very soluble and wash out easily, two like to stay around in the gelatin, the second fresh fixer converts the less soluble "by products" into their more soluble "cousins" and you get a better wash.

When your first bath is fresh it can do the job by itself but the by products build up in the first bath and it gets to the point that it does not doe it's job as well.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom