Eugene Atget Appreciation: a sideshow about 'knockers' and the ethics of forum posting

[Alan Edward Klein]

{Moderator note: this thread was split off of the original one to shunt off a diversion about the ethics of female-friendly posting.}

I know this will go down like a lead balloon with those who venerate Atget without question, but please explain to me why you are praising Atget and not the artist who sculpted that very fine knocker?

In case anyone thinks I am down on Atget, nothing could be further from the truth. I love the previous image (post #577), for example, though I think I’d love it more if the foot of the nearest pedestal hadn’t been cut off. But by posting this lion knocker, @Don_ih has hit exactly the thing that is difficult and puzzling about Atget.

Frankly, I've seen better knockers.

 

[koraks]

Frankly, I've seen better knockers.

Possibly also photographed by Atget, for that matter.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Possibly also photographed by Atget, for that matter.

Really? I'll have to look into his work.

 

[koraks]

Really? I'll have to look into his work.

Category:Photographs of nude females by Eugène Atget - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

NSFW - because, well - knockers.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:tongue:hotographs_of_nude_females_by_Eugène_Atget

NSFW - because, well - knockers.

Yes, he did have a thing about knockers.

 

[Arthurwg]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:tongue:hotographs_of_nude_females_by_Eugène_Atget

NSFW - because, well - knockers.

Oddly enough my favorite Atget nude is not among them.

 

[snusmumriken]

Yes, he did have a thing about knockers.

But not in a lascivious way. It seems like he was seeking classical poses.

 

[Don_ih]

But not in a lascivious way. It seems like he was seeking classical poses.

Classical poses aren't lascivious?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Why do threads have to drift this direction?

 

[Don_ih]

Why do threads have to drift this direction?

Why not? It's a casual conversation. Should it be officiated? Should we invoke Robert's Rules of Order?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, the banter can get kinda sophomoric peep-showish at times on some of these forums, perhaps better suited for a dedicated section on nude photog. But I wouldn't want to press for moderator action if it's low key. It's no secret that Atget photographed prostitutes; but it was a pretty small part of his overall inventory. But sometimes a line gets crossed; I'm not insinuating it has in this particular instance, but it certainly could. Sure, I have plenty of examples of famous nude photography on my own photo book shelves - Stieglitz, Wynn Bullock etc. I just don't like feeling like I'm back in a high school lunch room conversation 60 yrs ago, or hearing more of the disrespectful blue collar descriptions of women, and jokes about them, I heard to at work for 40 yrs. I don't care about Robert's Rules of Order; but what would women themselves on this forum think about it?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

But not in a lascivious way. It seems like he was seeking classical poses.

"But my photographs are art, officer."

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Well, the banter can get kinda sophomoric peep-showish at times on some of these forums, perhaps better suited for a dedicated section on nude photog. But I wouldn't want to press for moderator action if it's low key. It's no secret that Atget photographed prostitutes; but it was a pretty small part of his overall inventory. But sometimes a line gets crossed; I'm not insinuating it has in this particular instance, but it certainly could. Sure, I have plenty of examples of famous nude photography on my own photo book shelves - Stieglitz, Wynn Bullock etc. I just don't like feeling like I'm back in a high school lunch room conversation 60 yrs ago, or hearing more of the disrespectful blue collar descriptions of women, and jokes about them, I heard to at work for 40 yrs. I don't care about Robert's Rules of Order; but what would women themselves on this forum think about it?

It's a legitimate question whether his nude photos were art or voyeurism or something else. French Post-Impressionist Paul Gauguin painted nude underage indigenous girls in the South Seas where he retired and married a 13 year-old and became very controversial for his paintings, especially today. It would be interesting to hear from women here what they think about Atget's photos.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

It would be interesting to hear from women here what they think about Atget's photos.

Wild guess: you'll get a huge variety of opinions, because, fun fact: not all women think alike.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Wild guess: you'll get a huge variety of opinions, because, fun fact: not all women think alike.

We may get opinions we haven't heard here yet, as they would have a different perspective. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what they think? Frankly, I believe many women are better photographers than men because men get caught up with technical aspects like sharpness, how many stops, DOF, etc. while women are more concerned with personal relationships and feelings, especially in portraiture.

 

[snusmumriken]

Classical poses aren't lascivious?

That’s certainly a debate one can have, but perhaps it’s not relevant here. Atget clearly accepted the classically styled statues of undraped women as part of the Ancient Regime whose traces he was documenting. It’s not a huge presumption to suppose that he admired them and sought to emulate the style with live models and photography. We don’t need to get involved with the rightness or wrongness of his point of view (pun unintended).

And anyway, he may have been supplying those nudes to artists who preferred not to deal with living models. AFAIK, there’s no reason to suppose he took the photos as a personal project.

 

[Don_ih]

he may have been supplying those nudes to artists

He likely was.

And I don't think a debate about this is needed here. But it's a good idea to acknowledge that humans act on their desires probably more than on their elevated concepts. If one were to carry the complaint back to the artists that such art (photographic, painted, or sculpted nudes) objectifies women, the farther back in time you go, the more you'd get the response, "Well, yeah! That's the point." Art and the concept of beauty were not always so abstracted from genuine physical nature and desire. So while maybe people don't like the idea of Atget rushing home to develop his plates to get a better "appreciation" of the female form he just photographed - if he did, he likely saw nothing unusual about it.

Fun stuff.

 

[cliveh]

Why do threads have to drift this direction?

I would agree with this. Many threads seem to be debased in this way.

 

[koraks]

Why do threads have to drift this direction?

I would agree with this. Many threads seem to be debased in this way.

Factually speaking this doesn't happen a lot at all here on Photrio.
Factually speaking what happened in this thread was a fairly innocuous pun that resulted in a brief and polite exchange of the possible motivations of this small part of Atget's work. This happened on pp24-25 of a long thread where pretty much everything we know about the man has been said, by now. The fact that this dimension of his work is also touched upon is fair & square especially in the manner it was done.

The only thing that's slightly disruptive to the thread is the framing of a nonexistent problem. It's disrespectful to those who intended and succeeded in conducting an inherently respectful exchange of views.

Live & let live, and if there's a problem, use the 'report' function instead of trying to 'solve' it by pouring a mixture of acid and gasoline on it.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Factually speaking this doesn't happen a lot at all here on Photrio.
Factually speaking what happened in this thread was a fairly innocuous pun that resulted in a brief and polite exchange of the possible motivations of this small part of Atget's work. This happened on pp24-25 of a long thread where pretty much everything we know about the man has been said, by now. The fact that this dimension of his work is also touched upon is fair & square especially in the manner it was done.

The only thing that's slightly disruptive to the thread is the framing of a nonexistent problem. It's disrespectful to those who intended and succeeded in conducting an inherently respectful exchange of views.

Live & let live, and if there's a problem, use the 'report' function instead of trying to 'solve' it by pouring a mixture of acid and gasoline on it.

I saw nothin'. I heard nothin'. I know nothin'.

 

[Vaughn]

I would agree with this. Many threads seem to be debased in this way.

Yes and often enough that such flippery like making a pun about women's breasts is one of the reasons we do not get many women here expressing their views. They get enough toxic mascalinity in real life. (deleted comment)

Also I meant flippant -- not flippery as in having flippers.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Well, the banter can get kinda sophomoric peep-showish at times on some of these forums

Yes and often enough that such flippery like making a pun about women's breasts is one of the reasons we do not get many women here expressing their views. They get enough toxic mascalinity in real life.

I would like to second my agreement with what @DREW WILEY and @Vaughn have said. I think it is too common for oafish comments to get lightly dismissed as, "boys will be boys," which may be true enough, but none the less, likely to sound offensive to some forum members.

One litmus test participants might use before posting a comment about female anatomy would be to ask themselves, "Would I say this at the dinner table if my mother, wife, and daughter were present?"

To my ear, the comment, "I've seen better knockers," does not sound like part of an inherently respectful exchange of views on a public forum, and probably should have been self-censored.

 

[Vaughn]

But not in a lascivious way. It seems like he was seeking classical poses.

This got me thinking, besides selling nude studies to painters, what would work best for cityscape painters. I was going through images of Atget online looking for ferns in the foreground, instead I found a common feature in many of his works -- an open and visually quick to move through foreground. An alley or road, steps, open space, etc. moving through the lower 1/3 of the frame or so. This would be expected, it is natural to construct a path for the eye to travel up into one's image. But also I think it would be a good composition style for images to be sold to painters...they would be free to create their own foreground and make it their own painting while taking advantage of the camera perspective..

 

[Arthurwg]

It's no secret that Atget photographed prostitutes; but it was a pretty small part of his overall inventory.

I believe the nudes were shot on commission.

 

[Arthurwg]

French Post-Impressionist Paul Gauguin painted nude underage indigenous girls in the South Seas where he retired and married a 13 year-old and became very controversial for his paintings, especially today.

I believe that Gauguin has become almost cancelled over this. Too bad as he was a truly great painter,