Ethol LPD

pentaxuser · Apr 15, 2013

I know there have been several threads on this but I thought it best to place my request on a new thread.

A recent thread about its longevity made me research its other properties and it seems that depending on dilution it will do a range of tones from a light warm brown to dark brown in WT papers and from very light to warm silver through to cold to blue black in cold/neutral papers.

I did some research and stole the above categories from a description Les McLean gave several years ago when he explained what dilutions gave what colour and my thanks to his post.

Could any of you LPD users out there show examples of what these different dilutions produce as a print. A set of different tones of the same print and in both WT and cold/neutral paper would be ideal but any examples will be appreciated

This stuff is not easy to get in the U.K. but it might be worth the effort depending on the results on prints

Thanks

pentaxuser

pstake · Apr 15, 2013

Hi, Pentaxuser,

If you take a look at the prints scanned for this post: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

... these were made on Adorama's RC VC cold tone, using 1:1 dilution LPD.

SuzanneR · Apr 15, 2013

Several years ago, I tested out different dilutions of the LPD on Ilford warmtone paper, and though the differences were quite obvious in person from 1:1 dilution to 1:5, it was harder to discern a difference when I scanned the prints. Just a little too subtle for the scanner. It's a great all purpose developer, and since it comes in a powder form it doesn't cost as much to ship, highly recommended.

Roger Cole · Apr 15, 2013

I mentioned once on FADU that I use it but had heard it was hard to find in the UK, and several people replied telling me where they got it. I don't remember now, but apparently it is available in the UK. I can check FADU and see if I can find that thread.

EDIT:

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=66956&highlight=Ethol#post66956

AG Photographic carries it but says they are waiting for fresh stock:

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/ethol-lpd-1us-gal-2356-p.asp

That price is about double what I pay for it, though. At current exchange rates 19.95 GBP is $30.60 USD and I pay $15.99/gallon for the powder from Freestyle. However I have to admit that I like it enough I'd still use it if it were $30.

pentaxuser · Apr 15, 2013

Thanks all so far. I had feared that the differences, especially between the different tones on cold/neutral paper might be so subtle that a scan of a print wouldn't show it. I imagine purely from Les McLean's category descriptions that WT paper is probably more responsive but its the cold/neutral paper where the differences are subtle.

I may be looking for the "Holy Grail" here but if I am honest I was hoping that even with neutral/cold paper that I could get a reasonably warm look.

If Suzanne can see a difference with her naked eye then I should as well provided my eye is as discerning.

Can I ask this to help clarify: How much warmer in relation to other WT developers can LPD warm up neutral paper? I am a RC user and have access to Ilford, Fotospeed,Kentmere and Adox RCVC

Any one of these papers more responsive than the others?

One additional question if I may: It sounds as if I'd need to go to 1:4 or even 1:5 to get warmth so how much does this extend developing time?

Thanks for your info on LPD as well, Roger. It would appear that Ag is my only bet and as you say it is waiting for fresh stock but I'll check Silverprint as well.

pentaxuser

pstake · Apr 15, 2013

pentaxuser said:
One additional question if I may: It sounds as if I'd need to go to 1:4 or even 1:5 to get warmth so how much does this extend developing time?

pentaxuser

Going from 1:1 to 1:2 made a noticeably warmer image on ILFORD MGIV fiber, for me. It extended development by 30 seconds to a minute. (It took an extra 30 seconds or so for the image to appear, in the developer. I left it in for 3 minutes (I think).

At 1:1, I usually leave it in for 2:15 ... Anyway, 1:2 is the "warmest" i've ever diluted LPD.

If Thomas Bertilsson (sp?) sees this thread, he may be able comment more intelligently. I seem to remember seeing LPD listed as his paper dev of choice in the gallery. And he, like Suzanne, seems generally to be more attuned to the nuance of paper and chemistry, than me.

I like LPD's versatility for sure; but mostly I like its economy. Stuff lasts forever and ever.

rorye · Apr 15, 2013

I've tested 4 different papers at 4 different dilutions.
My scanning skills are not too good but I'd be happy to send you the test strips.
It is a super developer.

pentaxuser · Apr 15, 2013

rorye, a kind of a swatch book of print/dev dilutions.That's a great offer but have a look at where I am - in a place called Daventry in the heart of the U.K. Midlands. Only about 7000 miles away

If you are still willing then what would it cost to send them to the U.K.? If the cost is reasonable I can cover it with Paypal if you have an account.

Let me know. Thanks

pentaxuser

Richard Jepsen · Apr 15, 2013

I use LPD at 1:3 all the time. The tone shift is not dramatic. Shifts may be aided by toning or pulling a print. For reference, think Ilford's PQ universal paper developer used with Galerie.

Galerie untoned is just left of neutral. PQ is just left of neutral vs the same print developed in Dektol. Compare the Galerie 1:3 print to a similar print developed 1:3 in LPD but toned in KRST. The tone shift would move from from just left of neutral to a cooler just right of neutral tone.

Think of the tone difference between pulling a print vs normal 2 min development. That may be another way to visualize how much the tone scale can be bent with LPD dilutions. The extreme ends, 1:1 vs 1:5, combined with toning on some papers may be more dramatic.

You can't make neutral/cool Ilford MGIV look warm.

LPD fully develops prints in 120s unlike 130 diluted 1:3 or higher.

Roger Cole · Apr 15, 2013

Reportedly you can make MGWT look cool with Moersch SE6. There was a thread about that here. But I agree that you can't do so with LPD though you could cool it slightly compared to a warm tone developer.

I use LPD 1+2 and find it slightly cooler than Dektol, or at least not quite as much green tinge. I still routinely tone in dilute KRST for cool/neutral papers.

I should also point out that LPD is available, at least in the US, as a liquid concentrate. You pay more for the convenience and probably more for shipping but that might be worth it to you. The important thing is that the liquid is more concentrated than the stock mixed from powder so you dilute the liquid concentrate 1+4 for the same results as 1+2 from the powder. Otherwise, I've used both and they seem identical.

pstake · Apr 15, 2013

Richard Jepsen said:
The extreme ends, 1:1 vs 1:5, combined with toning on some papers may be more dramatic.

You can't make neutral/cool Ilford MGIV look warm.

LPD fully develops prints in 120s unlike 130 diluted 1:3 or higher.

The extreme cold-tone end would be undiluted as opposed to 1:1.

Even with MGIV, the difference between 1:0, 1:1, and 1:2, is noticeable from cold blue blacks to mildly cool blacks. This is, at least, my experience, which is admittedly only 10 years, and using LPD for only two of them.

pentaxuser · Sep 16, 2013

Richard Jepsen said:
LPD fully develops prints in 120s unlike 130 diluted 1:3 or higher.

You are clearly saying that LPD develops all prints in 120 seconds if the dilution is 1+3 or higher. Does 120 seconds apply to other dilutions and what is the significance of "unlike 130" ? Is this Ansco 130 and you are saying that the difference is that LPD retains the two minute development time but the Ansco 130 then needs longer than 120 seconds at dilutions of 1+3 or higher

If I have fully understood your statement above then it sounds as if LPD develops all print in 120 seconds irrespective of the dilution?

Have I got this correct?

Thanks

titrisol · Sep 17, 2013

In prints LPD 1+1 or 1+3 the tone change was subtle but noticeable.
It is dramatic if you do 1+10 or higher (warning, you maybe only able to develop a few prints so keep the stock handy to replenish)

However, when you tone the print the way it reacts can be dramatic
You get nice aubergine tones with selenium and dark chocolates or "caffe au lait) tones with viradon.

rorye · Sep 17, 2013

I find LPD takes at least 3 mins, typically I give it 4, but of course everyone has different ways of working, just my 2cents

markbarendt · Sep 17, 2013

rorye said:
I find LPD takes at least 3 mins, typically I give it 4, but of course everyone has different ways of working, just my 2cents

It is fully dependent on temperature, and little bit less dependent on exposure. you are right in that we all find different ways.

pentaxuser · Sep 18, 2013

markbarendt said:
It is fully dependent on temperature, and little bit less dependent on exposure. you are right in that we all find different ways.

Can you give more details? For instance is the 3 mins the right time for the usual 20 degrees C and if so is there a table or any user experience here to show what times might be for someone with a Nova processor where the temp cam be increased considerably and might there be limit to the max temp at which LPD will work properly? If so what might this be?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 18, 2013

markbarendt said:
It is fully dependent on temperature, and little bit less dependent on exposure. you are right in that we all find different ways.

I'm with Rory. I use LPD replenished, and recently tested to see what three and four minute developing times do, and there is a definite increase in 'weight' to the print tonality going to 4 minutes.
It also depends a bit on print size. I develop longer for a 16x20 than I do for an 11x14, because of the fine detail that starts to appear when the prints are bigger. That micro detail appears to almost lower overall contrast (it doesn't actually do that), but to counteract that impression I leave it in for a bit longer. That is way easier than to give 1/2 grade more contrast.

After reading all of the above I'm keen to try LPD undiluted.

pentaxuser · Sep 18, 2013

OK still waiting for answers to the correlation between temp and dev time but it is early days, especially in the U.S.( breakfast time in California ) but can it be confirmed that greater dilutions do not increase dev time by those who have tried different dilutions or is there also a relationship between dilution and dev time?

It strikes me that for stuff that has been around a long time there seems to be so little in terms of technical detail which I find surprising.

pentaxuser

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 18, 2013

pentaxuser said:
OK still waiting for answers to the correlation between temp and dev time but it is early days, especially in the U.S.( breakfast time in California ) but can it be confirmed that greater dilutions do not increase dev time by those who have tried different dilutions or is there also a relationship between dilution and dev time?

It strikes me that for stuff that has been around a long time there seems to be so little in terms of technical detail which I find surprising.

pentaxuser

Sorry, can't help you with that... I don't live in California.

markbarendt · Sep 18, 2013

pentaxuser said:
Can you give more details? For instance is the 3 mins the right time for the usual 20 degrees C and if so is there a table or any user experience here to show what times might be for someone with a Nova processor where the temp cam be increased considerably and might there be limit to the max temp at which LPD will work properly? If so what might this be?

Thanks

pentaxuser

LPD, in my experience, stops working below 18 degrees Celsius. At 19°C I will run about three to four minutes. At 20°C I like to run about 2 minutes. At 22 I'll run about 90 seconds. One thing to keep in mind here is that your thermometers and my thermometers will read differently, it is not uncommon to see two different thermometers show a 1 or 2° difference.

These are baseline numbers depending on the prints and what I'm looking for, as Thomas says running a little extra can get or add weight to the print, the need for that is totally subjective.

All the developers that I have used, come up quickly to a certain point (say over the first 90 seconds) and then the progress moves slowly from there to completion. Anywhere after that first 90 seconds or so you can decide where to stop depending on your needs, including how much exposure you have given the print.

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 18, 2013

markbarendt said:
LPD, in my experience, stops working below 18 degrees Celsius. At 19°C I will run about three to four minutes. At 20°C I like to run about 2 minutes. At 22 I'll run about 90 seconds. One thing to keep in mind here is that your thermometers and my thermometers will read differently, it is not uncommon to see two different thermometers show a 1 or 2° difference.

These are baseline numbers depending on the prints and what I'm looking for, as Thomas says running a little extra can get or add weight to the print, the need for that is totally subjective.

All the developers that I have used, come up quickly to a certain point (say over the first 90 seconds) and then the progress moves slowly from there to completion. Anywhere after that first 90 seconds or so you can decide where to stop depending on your needs, including how much exposure you have given the print.

For what it's worth I've worked with LPD at about 55 degrees F, and while not ideal, it continues on.

pentaxuser · Sep 18, 2013

Thanks, Mark that's very helpful information. It sounds as if dilution ratios doesn't make any difference to dev time which is to all intents and purposes temp dependent.

Of course this is my conclusion by reading between the lines and based on nothing being said about the dilution/time effect.

If there is a dilution/time effect then maybe someone will correct my conclusion. Thanks

pentaxuser

markbarendt · Sep 18, 2013

As long as LPD is fresh or well replenished dilution, per the Ethol instructions, has very little effect on time. Capacity drops as dilution increases.

pentaxuser · Sep 18, 2013

Thanks again Mark

pentaxuser

markbarendt · Sep 18, 2013

I don't pretend to know how the chemistry works, or what is different in the formula, but one of LPD's big selling points is that the tone changes with dilution, not the contrast and I don't remember the instructions suggesting alternative times, for different dilutions.

Speaking only from my practical experience, there is no difference in print time between 1+4 and 1+2; it is only when the working solution starts to exhaust that I find that the prints start coming out underdone. Up to that point they just get warmer and warmer. Outside that range I don't know.

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