Ethics of buying Russian & Chinese film & paper

Lee Shively said:

Despite the handwringing, the world in which we live is the world we have created for ourselves.

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Dear Lee,

That was my point, really: it's no good blaming 'wicked capitalists' or 'commie governments' or 'evil factory owners' and expecting someone else to do something about it. The chain of greed and meanness begins on our own doorstep when we buy on price alone.

For another example, although I am an enthusiastic carnivore, I won't buy battery-raised pork. I'm not a rich man, but I'm not so poor I have to condemn pigs to a life like that. Same with eggs.

Cheers,

Roger

firecracker said:

Japan is nowhere near as being "nice" as what the outsiders ever get to hear. The overall economy seems alright in numbers and figures, but the employment status in reality certainly is not.

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This is interesting. As a Tibetan friend of mine said, Western lack of interest in 'little yellow men' (his words) is sometimes astonishing, but with Japan, the lack of information is remarkable. The only person I know who lives there (in Tokyo) is a currency trader, a friend's son, who does paint a rather distorted picture (he's the kind of fellow who flies to Singapore alternate week-ends to see his girlfriend, who flies to Tokyo to see him the other week-ends. But I hear depressingly little that is good about the Japanese economy. It appears that life in the countryside is better, or is this just nostalgic myth?

Cheers,

Roger

Roger Hicks said:

This is interesting. As a Tibetan friend of mine said, Western lack of interest in 'little yellow men' (his words) is sometimes astonishing, but with Japan, the lack of information is remarkable. The only person I know who lives there (in Tokyo) is a currency trader, a friend's son, who does paint a rather distorted picture (he's the kind of fellow who flies to Singapore alternate week-ends to see his girlfriend, who flies to Tokyo to see him the other week-ends. But I hear depressingly little that is good about the Japanese economy. It appears that life in the countryside is better, or is this just nostalgic myth?

Cheers,

Roger

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I'm not an economist so I don't know their point of views. Those who make 6 digits a year won't probably see the very bottom end anyway.

The countryside is totally colonized, or in today's term, as you said, "sweat-shopped" by Tokyo, the political, economic, and cultural center of the regime. But even in Tokyo, the class is so divided that keeps the poor away from the mainstream, or they are becoming the mainstream but with their mouths completely shut.

If there's nostalgia, that is probably the era from 20 to 30 years ago when people all over the country who had jobs were able to make a living.

I mean when people bash some states like China and Russia, I just feel like saying, " Look, they have bad histories of treating their own people pretty bad, but look around where you live, you might see the same thing." Japan to me is no exception and seems to fit in the same category...

firecracker said:

I mean when people bash some states like China and Russia, I just feel like saying, " Look, they have bad histories of treating their own people pretty bad, but look around where you live, you might see the same thing." Japan to me is no exception and seems to fit in the same category...

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I think there are very few exceptions. It's just a case of finding the least worst. One thing that does seem to correlate pretty well is income disparities within an organization. From memory, the disparities from maximum to minimum rank in the Royal Navy in the 70s (when my father retired) were 6:1, and in the Soviet navy, 30:1. Within a society, disparities are obviously more varied and are better judged in the ratios of the top and bottom percentiles, but by definition, politicians have a lot more to so with the top 10% than the bottom 10%, especially in those countries where elections are all but bought and sold.

Cheers,

Roger

Dear Roger, please, don't feel mortified for mixing Croatia and Bosnia (in fact full name of my country is Bosnia and Herzegovina). After all, Encyclopedia Britanica stil place my country into Yugoslavia (and that country does not exsist anymore)

It is not about bashing this or that country. If there is need to bashing anything it would be wrong values, not countries.

I really don't get it. We live in 21 century and still can't get forward. Our spiritual, moral, humanitarian, etc... level hasn't changed for millenia. We go forward only technically, in all other aspects we don't. I mean, what progress (except technical) is in fact that we make wars with digital technology instead throwing stones on eachothers. Both are wars. Or in fact that we had "real" slaves few hundreds years ago, and today "only economical" slaves...

You know, being rich is not only about having things/money. I mean, what is point if I have billions when others have them too. Goal is that I have billions and others don't, and that way I am showing I am better then others. Being rich is not only about things, it is also about ego, fulfilling need to dominate over others. That is why we have bigger and bigger gap between (economical) classes, and that gap over time will be only bigger. What sad and miserable kind we humans are...


Regards.

Haris;

A relative of mine came from Fagrash. I don't even know which part of the former Yugoslavia it is located in.

A friend that worked at Kodak came from Yugoslavia and loved to bring back a Yugoslavian ham every time she went back there. On her last trip, the customs officials here took it from her. She was very sad. That was back in the 90s.

We had several people in research from Yugoslavia.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Haris;

A relative of mine came from Fagrash. I don't even know which part of the former Yugoslavia it is located in.

A friend that worked at Kodak came from Yugoslavia and loved to bring back a Yugoslavian ham every time she went back there. On her last trip, the customs officials here took it from her. She was very sad. That was back in the 90s.

We had several people in research from Yugoslavia.

PE

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Me too don't know about Fagrash. Sound like somewhere in Vojvodina, there are lot of people with Hungarian origin, and names of some towns are Hungarian, and name of that town sounds like Hungarian...

Yes, you can find us (former Yougoslavians) everywhere (well, like others too). Is that good or bad I don't know

Regards

Roger Hicks said:

I think there are very few exceptions. It's just a case of finding the least worst. One thing that does seem to correlate pretty well is income disparities within an organization. From memory, the disparities from maximum to minimum rank in the Royal Navy in the 70s (when my father retired) were 6:1, and in the Soviet navy, 30:1. Within a society, disparities are obviously more varied and are better judged in the ratios of the top and bottom percentiles, but by definition, politicians have a lot more to so with the top 10% than the bottom 10%, especially in those countries where elections are all but bought and sold.

Cheers,

Roger

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Reminds me of what my friend told me a while ago. She worked for Sony in the 80's, and she said she was always hanging out with her boss, the founder of Sony all the time, and her boss' salary was only several times more than hers. But now it's like, whatever...

Anyway, I see what you mean, to find the "least worst." That's gotta be a sign of real hope, I guess.

haris said:

Dear Roger, please, don't feel mortified for mixing Croatia and Bosnia (in fact full name of my country is Bosnia and Herzegovina). After all, Encyclopedia Britanica stil place my country into Yugoslavia (and that country does not exsist anymore)

It is not about bashing this or that country. If there is need to bashing anything it would be wrong values, not countries.

I really don't get it. We live in 21 century and still can't get forward. Our spiritual, moral, humanitarian, etc... level hasn't changed for millenia. We go forward only technically, in all other aspects we don't. I mean, what progress (except technical) is in fact that we make wars with digital technology instead throwing stones on eachothers. Both are wars. Or in fact that we had "real" slaves few hundreds years ago, and today "only economical" slaves...

You know, being rich is not only about having things/money. I mean, what is point if I have billions when others have them too. Goal is that I have billions and others don't, and that way I am showing I am better then others. Being rich is not only about things, it is also about ego, fulfilling need to dominate over others. That is why we have bigger and bigger gap between (economical) classes, and that gap over time will be only bigger. What sad and miserable kind we humans are...


Regards.

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Dear Haris,

I'm not sure it's entirely true that there are no spiritual, moral or humanitarian improvements. It is possible that a well-kept slave was better off than a poorly-paid wage-slave, but a badly-treated slave is another matter: one Roman, for example, killed one of his slaves by locking him in a room with no water, and only salt fish to eat. Massacres are both rarer than they were, and more widely condemned. Racism has certainly declined in my lifetime. It's a slow process, but I think it's happening.

Likewise, although income disparities are rising, they were higher still at the beginning of the 20th century, when it was quite common for even middle-class families to keep at least one servant. Disparities fell a lot between the Great War and the 60s, and they can fall again.

As for your point concerning wealth-as-status, this intrigues me. I am sure you are right, but I suspect that this is because many other status indicators have been greatly devalued, especially education, though there are plenty of others, not always desirable: accent, religion...

What puzzles me about wealth-as-status is why so many people are so greedy. I'm incredibly lucky. I live in a rich country, in my own house, and I eat well. I have good friends, albeit scattered around the world. We enjoy the best medical care in the world. How much more can I decently ask for? As a friend of mine said, you choose your own social class nowadays -- and to define it solely in terms of wealth seems to me to be the worst kind of narrow-minded, small-village peasant behaviour, scaled up for big cities.

This, to me, is the reason not to buy Chinese film, quite apart from PE's quality observations. Until the Chinese government takes the brakes off the Internet; allows true religious freedom; and stops pretending that their peculiarly vile brand of communism and their peculiarly vile brand of capitalism are reconcilable and defensible; until then, there is little hope for promoting values based on decency, education, and common humanity. But money and power always speak loudest.

Cheers,

Roger

"Until the Chinese government takes the brakes off the Internet; allows true religious freedom; and stops pretending that their peculiarly vile brand of communism and their peculiarly vile brand of capitalism are reconcilable and defensible; until then, there is little hope for promoting values based on decency, education, and common humanity. But money and power always speak loudest."

.....until the world economies stop "rewarding" China why would they change? Evidently communism is good now, the FSU must have done it differently? :confused: Regards.

laverdure said:

Given the track record of Russia and China for turning entire regions into wasteland where they set up industry, I'm a little put off by the idea of buying their photographic products. Anyone else thought about this?

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I've thought about it, but the question is where do you stop ? I understand country's like the former East Germany and Japan have some of the highest level of industrial polution in the world, do we all junk our Japanese and East German photo gear ?

Iskra 2 said:

.....until the world economies stop "rewarding" China why would they change? Evidently communism is good now, the FSU must have done it differently? :confused: Regards.

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Ouch. Yes. But as I said, money and power speak loudest.

benjiboy said:

I've thought about it, but the question is where do you stop ? I understand country's like the former East Germany and Japan have some of the highest level of industrial polution in the world, do we all junk our Japanese and East German photo gear ?

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Point well taken -- where, indeed, do you stop -- but the difference is, they're cleaning up their old factories, not building new ones. And politically, they're now light years ahead of China.

benjiboy said:

I've thought about it, but the question is where do you stop ? I understand country's like the former East Germany and Japan have some of the highest level of industrial polution in the world, do we all junk our Japanese and East German photo gear ?

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My point in this thread was: You can't boycot China or Russia or ... made products because of pollution, but at same time quite happy buy products of companies/countries which use child slaves as labours, not pay their workers honestly, etc...

For me that is hypocritical.

So, what is solution? To provide affordable clean industry to China, Russia, etc... cheap of not for free, and to give good working conditions to all workers. Solution is not to boycot. If you boycot economy of country which have 1 billion or 1,5 billion population, you will suffer consequences. Sooner or later.

So, fair game is answer.

Regards

Boy am I in trouble.

Fagrash is in Rumania.

Sorry for the goof.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Boy am I in trouble.

Fagrash is in Rumania.

Sorry for the goof.

PE

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Yes -- this week. But in the Karpathy, quite a lot is Transylvania, historical Hungarian territory (Hungary was really bad at choosing sides in WW1 and WW2). Can't find Fagrash myself, but as previous posts have indicated, my Balkan geography is not what it might be.

Iskra 2 said:

.....until the world economies stop "rewarding" China why would they change? Evidently communism is good now, the FSU must have done it differently? :confused: Regards.

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AS you have USA form capitalism, European form of capitalism, Scandinavian form of capitalism, there was also USSR form of communism, Cuban form of communism, etc... and (former) Yugoslavian communism.

My preferences would be (by informations and experiences I have): Scandinavian capitalism, European capitalism (or vice versa), Yugoslavian communism. Rest I don't like at all. USSR and Cuban communism because of oppression and dictatorship, USA capitalism because of economy liberalism, values and hypocrism.

Roger Hicks said:

Yes -- this week. But in the Karpathy, quite a lot is Transylvania, historical Hungarian territory (Hungary was really bad at choosing sides in WW1 and WW2). Can't find Fagrash myself, but as previous posts have indicated, my Balkan geography is not what it might be.

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And having in mind how often Balkan political geography is changed, we who live here don't get it completely too

Roger Hicks said:

Point well taken -- where, indeed, do you stop -- but the difference is, they're cleaning up their old factories, not building new ones. And politically, they're now light years ahead of China.

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Did you care about the news of what happened to the world's largest nuclear power plant Kriwa-Kashiwazaki in Japan after the big earthquake back in July? That could've been the worst nuclear disaster in history.

This is not only because of the deficits found in the technological aspect, but the actual mis-handling of that monster and the thing that the government keeps poundering with the word "safety" everyday also. It's like cult.

Now Japan as one of the most advance nations is like this over the control of this death-threatening device, and you said it it's light years ahead of China. Then I really wonder what is going on in China's nuclear energy scene.

Yes, I did hear about it (I assume 'care' was a mistype for 'hear' -- anyone who heard about it would surely care).

Well, I did say politically light years ahead. But I strongly suspect that nuclear power in China is pretty primitive as well. Building nuclear reactors in earthquake zones is always a bit interesting, though: I used to live about 30 miles from one in California.