Ethics of buying Russian & Chinese film & paper

laverdure · Aug 26, 2007

Given the track record of Russia and China for turning entire regions into wasteland where they set up industry, I'm a little put off by the idea of buying their photographic products. Anyone else thought about this?

Ole · Aug 26, 2007

I gave it a moment's though, then decided that to be consistent I would have to refuse buying US products too. And I still prefer Ektachrome to Fuji's E6 films...

Andrey Donchev · Aug 26, 2007

As my mother use to say: "Look in your backyard first, before start accusing your neighbor!"

Alex Hawley · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
- for turning entire regions into wasteland where they set up industry, I'm a little put off by the idea of buying their photographic products.

Sounds like a very subjective judgment, but if that's the way you see it, probably shouldn't be buying photographic products from anyone. You obviously have a computer. How "green" is the infrastructure necessary to place the computer on your desk or lap?

laverdure · Aug 26, 2007

Yeah... Ain't no film production in my neighborhood anymore. (Unless you're talking about Photo Engineer?) And Kodak did pretty bad back when- back when they were an American company- but they had to clean up eventually. No doubt one of the reasons they moved everything to China. (BTW- Is there any US Kodak production anymore? Anyone know?)

Thanks, Ole, for reminding me about Kodak. I'm not interested in limiting myself completely to EU products either. But for myself the question bears more thinking about than just a throwing up of hands- it might, for instance, be a factor in choosing a standard brand of paper, or a reason to set against playing with Lucky just because it's cheap.

I don't mean to preach... I just think it's a subject worth thinking about.

laverdure · Aug 26, 2007

Alex- it's not an either/or situation. You don't have to live in a tipi to be an environmentalist.

doughowk · Aug 26, 2007

The article on China in NYTimes doesn't do the math. If the Chinese are expected to surpass the US this year in total pollution, then per capita pollution is still only 1/5 of the US. China bashing should be done from a clean house, not made of glass. I like Slavich paper & have a Shen-Hao; and I consider myself an environmentalist (tree hugger to some).

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
Yeah... Ain't no film production in my neighborhood anymore. (Unless you're talking about Photo Engineer?) And Kodak did pretty bad back when- back when they were an American company- but they had to clean up eventually. No doubt one of the reasons they moved everything to China. (BTW- Is there any US Kodak production anymore? Anyone know?)

Thanks, Ole, for reminding me about Kodak. I'm not interested in limiting myself completely to EU products either. But for myself the question bears more thinking about than just a throwing up of hands- it might, for instance, be a factor in choosing a standard brand of paper, or a reason to set against playing with Lucky just because it's cheap.

I don't mean to preach... I just think it's a subject worth thinking about.

Kodak is in Monroe County NY. That is where Rochester is located.

Kodak Park film production is now running 24/7/365 making a good fraction of the total film made by Kodak world wide. There are still 4 sites making film for Kodak.

Kodak pollution emission has gone way down since the initial efforts started in the 60s. EK no longer uses Cadmium, Mercury, Ferricyanide, Formalin and a whole host of nasties as well as having reduced emission of methylene chloride which is used in making estar support among other things.

At this time, there is no Kodak film production in China.

PE

markbb · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
Given the track record of Russia and China for turning entire regions into wasteland where they set up industry, I'm a little put off by the idea of buying their photographic products. Anyone else thought about this?

Last time I looked, Manchester, England is not a wasteland. buy Ilford stuff with a clear concisions

david b · Aug 26, 2007

We Americans have no right to slap the Chinese or Russians or anyone else for polluting the planet and for selling crap material goods.

We do it every day.

Jim_in_Kyiv · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
Given the track record of Russia and China for turning entire regions into wasteland where they set up industry, I'm a little put off by the idea of buying their photographic products. Anyone else thought about this?

Then buy Ukrainian film instead! Svema is produced in Sumy Oblast - a place that's still more agricultural than industrial, and anything in the area that's going to be environmentally trashed probably is already. And you can get it in any color you like, as long as it's grey-scale.

By the way, did they ever finish cleaning up the DuPont site in Wheeling?

Tempting to ask if it would be OK to buy a Shen Hao if it were cut from free-range wood. Or would that make the situation worse?

eumenius · Aug 26, 2007

Hey-ho, just take your time and visit Pereslavl-Zalessky - one of the gems of Russian Golden Ring of cities, where Slavich is located. I am sure you wouldn't be able to locate the factory - and yes, the wild nature there, like lakes and forests, is simply superb. Look on it by yourself with Google Earth

eumenius · Aug 26, 2007

Jim,

does SVEMA produce film again? The last batches of FN-64 bought in Moscow was a clumsily re-spooled FORTE film, in 120 they just put a new piece of sealing paper over the original one

Zhenya

Jim_in_Kyiv said:
Then buy Ukrainian film instead! Svema is produced in Sumy Oblast - a place that's still more agricultural than industrial, and anything in the area that's going to be environmentally trashed probably is already. And you can get it in any color you like, as long as it's grey-scale.

By the way, did they ever finish cleaning up the DuPont site in Wheeling?

Tempting to ask if it would be OK to buy a Shen Hao if it were cut from free-range wood. Or would that make the situation worse?

Alex Hawley · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
Alex- it's not an either/or situation. You don't have to live in a tipi to be an environmentalist.

Oh! Its applied selectively then.

Jim_in_Kyiv · Aug 26, 2007

Hi Zhenya!

Svema is like Shostka cheese - the Northern Neighbor gets everything from Sumy Oblast because they can raise the prices when it crosses the border.

I did see some of the 64-speed in 35mm early this summer here in Kyiv, but I'm not sure how old it was. I was too excited by the fact that Ilford had discovered Ukraine and I can buy SFX-200 in 2 places within walking distance. Ahhh, civilization! After 5 years in an infrared desert.

I haven't seen anything from Svema in 120 for a long time. My understanding was that some movie film was still being produced for 'selected' art students and directors - the guy who won the short film award at Cannes last year was complaining about it, IIRC, and he had to buy film on the open market instead.

Actually, you have me wondering, because there is suddenly A LOT of Forte film, paper and chemistry here. I wonder where the film was really produced?

Cheers,
Jim

kjsphoto · Aug 26, 2007

Alex Hawley said:
Sounds like a very subjective judgment, but if that's the way you see it, probably shouldn't be buying photographic products from anyone. You obviously have a computer. How "green" is the infrastructure necessary to place the computer on your desk or lap?

Did you see he reports about the computer manufactures in New Mexico ( do a search on goggle I do not remember the link ). They are destroying the place. If y you have an issue with buying film / paper from Russia or China I would think twice about buying a computer from the US.

Kino · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
Given the track record of Russia and China for turning entire regions into wasteland where they set up industry, I'm a little put off by the idea of buying their photographic products. Anyone else thought about this?

Troll...

:rolleyes:

Alex Hawley · Aug 26, 2007

Kino said:
Troll...

:rolleyes:

Agree.

laverdure · Aug 26, 2007

PE- Thanks. I hadn't done any research of my own, clearly, but I suppose just repeating rumors. It's good to know, and it's much better news than I expected. I'll try to be more careful about making that sort of statement in the future.

Gentlemen- I had no idea this was going to be such a contentious thread. Frankly the relative value of ethical consumerism was not something I expected to have to defend. Luckily it doesn't need me!

Roger Hicks · Aug 26, 2007

david b said:
We Americans have no right to slap the Chinese or Russians or anyone else for polluting the planet and for selling crap material goods.

We do it every day.

True, but no matter how low your opinion of the USA, on human rights it's somewhat ahead of Russia and WAY ahead of China.

Alex Hawley · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
Gentlemen- I had no idea this was going to be such a contentious thread. Frankly the relative value of ethical consumerism was not something I expected to have to defend. Luckily it doesn't need me!

"ethical consumerism" - there you go again with those highly subjective terms of which you apparently do not see the subjectivity of. Bottom line-the whole premise of your thread is one where your version of ethics assumes a higher moral ground, or one that is absolute. Therefore, you start off by being contentious, hence the implication of a troll thread.

Now, let me put this one on Ignore.

Ray Heath · Aug 26, 2007

laverdure said:
Given the track record of Russia and China for turning entire regions into wasteland where they set up industry, I'm a little put off by the idea of buying their photographic products. Anyone else thought about this?

oh yeh, you're right, this has never happened in the 'developed' world!

Nokton48 · Aug 26, 2007

I still have 40 rolls of frozen 120 Svema 64 film, that I bought fresh from the dealer USTAS.

Have no qualms about it at all. Looking forward to burning some; I have a roll loaded in my favorite Kiev 60

John Kasaian · Aug 26, 2007

david b said:
We Americans have no right to slap the Chinese or Russians or anyone else for polluting the planet and for selling crap material goods.

We do it every day.

But in the US we can complain about it, write about it, propose legislation to stop it , and even boycott it.
Can't do that in China. They might throw you in prison and sell your nervous system to Katie Couric.

Pardon me for my lack of charity.

A healthy preschooler who loves Thomas the Tank Engine (always had one in hand, and often in mouth for the past three years of his young life) was diagnosed with lead poisoning and will be somewhat retarded for the rest of his life.

Things apparently are improving since I was last there in '88, more people are making more money and there are lots of lucerative deals going on I've been told but the kind of capitalisim that takes advantage of children is as repugnant and the totalitarian regime that cannot tolerate basic human freedoms as diabolical as the nazis (who incidentally also hosted the Olympic games)

Yeah, you can criticize the US and it's current un-constitutional experiment with illegal imprisonment and torture, and equally unconstitutional judicially enacted legislation, but the government is being scrutinized by the public who will vote thier concience. The chinese don't have a chance.

Many products come from China (and other nations as well as the USA) and we are free to question how and why and who made them.

That ain't a bad thing.

Jim_in_Kyiv · Aug 26, 2007

Nokton48 said:
I still have 40 rolls of frozen 120 Svema 64 film, that I bought fresh from the dealer USTAS.

Have no qualms about it at all. Looking forward to burning some; I have a roll loaded in my favorite Kiev 60

Shoot on! - The items are neither Russian nor Chinese.

However, I would reconsider any new-build FK's (if there are any), as logging in Ukraine is cutting into old-growth forests in the mountains, and we can't guarantee that the wood didn't come from improperly felled trees.

The degree to which the environment and labo(u)r is exploited is excellent material for a troll! But I can't figure out - do we want to call for Shen Hao's that are built of free-range wood, or wood purposefully grown to be slaughtered?

OTOH - while developing countries are wonderful places to be white-collar workers, sometimes, consider the likelihood of living to a healthy, ripe old age as a coal miner outside of the US or EU. Not a pleasant thought at all.

Ethics of buying Russian & Chinese film & paper

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