Ethics and Paypal

[John Koehrer]

With PP being the bank of Ebait and all that. I find a couple of things to complain(whine) about.
#1 is being asked to add PP fees to a purchase price. It's the seller's right to do this I know. In the day before PP became popular if you shopped at a retail store of even on the interweb and you bought something. The seller didn't ask you to add 3% to cover his banks fees to use a credit card. It was part of the cost of doing business. Now that everyone's a business they don't want to sacrifice that 3 cents/dollar. It's so very important to them.

#2 Even if PP is a corporate giant does that make it ethically right to not pay them the fees they deserve? As in send the money as a gift to bypass fees.

Just bothers me to be asked or to even have it suggested it's like the wink, wink, nudge, nudge way of doing business.
It just seems wrong.
I guess I'll have to mow the mayor's lawn now. Wink, wink.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe it is contrary to the PayPal terms of use to ask a buyer to pay the PayPal fee. If the fee bothers you as a seller, raise your price 3% accordingly and let PayPal take their chunk, or do the sneaky and inflate your shipping/handling to cover it. I usually agree to pay the fee (or split the fee) if the seller is otherwise a nice person and easy to deal with or they've got something I REALLY want and can't walk away from (some exotic antique lens I'd have to wait four years to find again), but I do find it galling when someone expects that I pay the fee as a matter of course.

 

[Hikingman]

Some forums prohibit adding PP fees to a deal when conducting sales among members! You gotta like some of those off-bay deals.

 

[sv@diycamerakit.com]

>Now that everyone's a business they don't want to sacrifice that 3 cents/dollar. It's so very important to them.

Well, it seems it's important to you as well. I Argentina, they will charge you more money if you want to pay with a credit card in the store. Some gas stations will charge you more if you want to pay with a card.

What I do find particularly annoying about eBay is that they banned the use of checks or money orders, so you either become a CC merchant or go along with PayPal.

 

[hspluta]

In the old days your local merchant would offer a discounted cash price for items. This was very prevalent at gas stations.

As far as sellers cheating the 3% fee, well I am just glad to have PP around and am more then willing to pay for the service. They have bailed me out of two bad transactions over the years and those two alone make up for the small fee. Not to mention there are a lot of buyers who will only buy if you offer to accept PP.

It just works for me,
-Harry

 

[Rick A]

If you want to use PP then cover the fees, or do like me, I pay with cash or money order. I see it as a convenience for those with no patience and want things immediatly, and lets face it, most people want their money NOW. I've lost out on some deals because of PP (my resistance to it) and that sense of urgency on the sellers part. Of course, it works both ways, with buyers seeing it as a way of speeding up a transaction. All I can say is if you are that anxious then be willing to pay for it.

As for the cheating, it is just that, cheating. PP will see it for what it is, and up the price of doing business to cover the loss, then more people will need to cheat, causing another hike in fees. It will continue, and people will gripe, and they have only themselves to blame for creating the situation. PP is a banking firm, and needs income to provide services. You want the service, then pay for it and dont complain.

 

[Barry S]

As a buyer, the only thing that matters to me is the delivered price including shipping and any other fees. A seller can add a finder's fee for his mother-in-law for all I care. If the price is good, I'm not going to raise an issue if the fee is split out. However, I do love sellers that advertise the price as "$XXX.XX shipped"--it make things easy on the brain.

 

[Dennis S]

When I deal with a seller south of the boarder or world wide for that matter, I ONLY use PP. That is basically the only protection that I have for unscrupulous sellers. Paying with CC is the same. Not saying APUG sellers are bad it is protection from delivery problems etc. And anyone that does sell and ship an item has the paper work to prove it.

 

[sun of sand]

i dont like sellers asking for their fees to be paid
build it into the asking price if anything

but then again i "don't know how things are customarily done"

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

eBay doesn't allow charging extra for PayPal fees, and in any case, by accepting PayPal, which is now required on eBay (you can accept other forms of payment, but you can't advertise it), you attract more bidders, so you get a higher price, which is usually greater than the fee.

 

[paul ewins]

I'm actually quite glad that the US Banking system is so backward that there is no effective system of direct deposit that you find here in Australia or in Europe. If there was then people would stop using PayPal and it would become very difficult for me to buy things from the US. I don't mind paying the extra 3%, but then it is usually dwarfed by the postage cost. Compared to rustling up some sort of Postal Orders or other archaic form of payment (which usually costs me a lot more to purchase as well) I'm happy to call 3% a convenience fee, along with the extra 2% found in their exchange rates.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I refuse to pay for anything with money orders. It's not worth the time spent in a New York bank or post office line.

 

[DanielStone]

personally, I like paypal. It offers a sense of "security" for both the buyer and the seller. Getting money for a sale RIGHT NOW is a nice thing, especially if you're watching something YOU WANT, and don't have all the cash in hand yet.

paypal "gift": personally, I think that Paypal couldn't give a rip on those of us who ask that a payment be sent as a "gift", as I do generally. Now, if you're doing $1k a week, then it might perk their computer dog's ears up to listen/watch your transactions.... It also saves the fees from both parties(that I know of), and it still allows you an instant transaction(besides waiting to transfer the money out of your account to your bank account after receipt of the sale's funds)

but I still accept P.M.O's, or cash in the mail, or personal checks(if we've done transactions before, but I still wait a week for them to clear fully before shipping).

I don't own stock in Paypal, but to me, saving time means saving money, for both parties. Since I am a college student, I don't have much time anyhow, even less money, so getting paid quickly is a big + for me most of the time vs. using money orders, checks, or bank checks,etc...

to each their own IMO

-Dan

 

[dbonamo]

personally, I like paypal. It offers a sense of "security" for both the buyer and the seller. Getting money for a sale RIGHT NOW is a nice thing, especially if you're watching something YOU WANT, and don't have all the cash in hand yet.

paypal "gift": personally, I think that Paypal couldn't give a rip on those of us who ask that a payment be sent as a "gift", as I do generally. Now, if you're doing $1k a week, then it might perk their computer dog's ears up to listen/watch your transactions.... It also saves the fees from both parties(that I know of), and it still allows you an instant transaction(besides waiting to transfer the money out of your account to your bank account after receipt of the sale's funds)

but I still accept P.M.O's, or cash in the mail, or personal checks(if we've done transactions before, but I still wait a week for them to clear fully before shipping).

I don't own stock in Paypal, but to me, saving time means saving money, for both parties. Since I am a college student, I don't have much time anyhow, even less money, so getting paid quickly is a big + for me most of the time vs. using money orders, checks, or bank checks,etc...

to each their own IMO

-Dan

The problem with accepting payment as gift is you as a seller do not have any protection from a bad deal.

 

[CRhymer]

I should think that the buyer would be more at risk. A gift is just that. How would one claim a refund?

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[removed account4]

i refuse to pay anyone as a "gift" using paypal.
just like i refuse to put "gift" or "broken ... " on a customs form.
if the seller ( or buyer ) can't afford the 3% + 30¢ paypal fees,
or not having someone break the law on a federal customs form
they aren't worth doing business with.

 

[BradS]

Paypal rules clearly say that sellers cannot charge buyers extra for using paypal. So, sellers who demand the buyer pay their paypal fee are breaking the rules...that's the same as dishonest. Why would I buy from a seller who is dishonest. False use of the gift thing is the same...dishonest....lying...cheating. Sellers: If you don't want to pay the fee, if you don't like the rules...do not offer paypal. Your cheating screws all of the rest of us who try to play by the rules. Actions have consequences.

 

[Brian Legge]

I've bought items from people here and on Craigslist using Paypal, money orders, personal checks, a google payment service and cash.

Personally, I prefer to buy with Paypal. It means that the seller can instantly see the money - less potential for miscommunication or uncertainty. On one of my biggest film purchases, the seller actually called me from the post office with a total cost, waited 5 minutes for me to paypal him the amount, verified it and shipped the goods. Very efficient transaction (other than me getting up at 5:30 in the morning to take his call and send the money - lousy time zone differences. )

In the end though, I'm open to whatever option the seller prefers. If it seems shady, we walk away - no harm done other than some wasted time.

 

[Steve Smith]

I refuse to pay for anything with money orders. It's not worth the time spent in a New York bank or post office line.

What's particularly horrible about a New York post office?

Postal orders are my favourite method of payment as unlike a cheque*, the seller does not have to wait for it to clear before posting. It's as good as sending cash without the risks.

(* sorry, I had to spell that correctly!).


Steve.

 

[Rick A]

What's particularly horrible about a New York post office?

Postal orders are my favourite method of payment as unlike a cheque*, the seller does not have to wait for it to clear before posting. It's as good as sending cash without the risks.

(* sorry, I had to spell that correctly!).


Steve.

You live in the UK and have no idea about standing in line for up to an hour waiting for the ranting lunatic or clueless dimwit in front of you that cant make up their mind or is only asking a question (that ends up being many)or has a badly wrapped package that they insist will pass, or for whatever reason. I live in a small town, and I've never waited more than a few minutes for service. I used to live in a large city(not NYC) and have experienced the lines.
My experiences with PP have been less than stellar in the past, that taints my current view of them.

 

[Steve Smith]

You live in the UK and have no idea about standing in line for up to an hour......

But we invented patiently waiting in line!


Steve.

 

[Rick A]

But we invented patiently waiting in line!


Steve.

I guess we Yanks
were born with angst

or so it seems when we are on a mission.

 

[removed account4]

i like postal money orders, you don't have to go to the bank to cash them
and international ones from canada too --- no fee to cash ...
people in the 4 or 5 local post offices, near me are nice, know me
from shipping things +picking things up. they are anything but dimwits.

i like using paypal too for the convenience factor, but i don't like people
that want me to lie and cheat ...

 

[Steve Smith]

UK postal orders used to be fixed amounts and any in between amounts were made up by sticking stamps on them. Now they are printed out and look just like cheques. The advantage to me as a buyer is that as soon as the seller receives it, he knows it will be cashed and doesn't have to wait for it to clear like he would with a personal cheque. A postal order issued by The Post Office isn't going to bounce.

I also like walking down to the post office during my lunch break.


Steve.

 

[moose10101]

eBay doesn't allow charging extra for PayPal fees, and in any case, by accepting PayPal, which is now required on eBay (you can accept other forms of payment, but you can't advertise it), you attract more bidders, so you get a higher price, which is usually greater than the fee.

Accepting PayPal is not required on eBay. You must accept at least one eBay-approved electronic payment service; PayPal is one, but there are several others, including MoneyBookers and ProPay. There is a complete list in eBay's Help pages.

I also think it's unethical to cheat PayPal out of its fees. For a private transaction (e.g. an APUG sale), I'll gladly pay the extra 3% on top of the selling price.