erythrosin & eosin

JOSarff · Feb 1, 2011

erythrosin CAS 16423-68-0
eosin Y CAS 17372-87-1

would these be correct as sensitizing dyes for a basic emulsion formula?

Thanks a lot.

Joe

Photo Engineer · Feb 1, 2011

Joe;

Erythrosine is the better known of the two for having activity as a sensitizing dye for emulsions. The wedge spectrograms of Green sensitive Azo type paper was done with Erythrosine. It is a common food coloring and is an active ingredient in Merthiolate. It is easily purchased at a rather low price. My last batch came fro www.kyantec.com

PE

Marco B · Feb 1, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Joe;

Erythrosine is the better known of the two for having activity as a sensitizing dye for emulsions. The wedge spectrograms of Green sensitive Azo type paper was done with Erythrosine. It is a common food coloring and is an active ingredient in Merthiolate. It is easily purchased at a rather low price. My last batch came fro www.kyantec.com

PE

Interesting, I know these substances as colouring dyes for microscopy. I never realized they had a function as sensitizing dyes. I love these parallels.

winger · Feb 1, 2011

Marco B said:
Interesting, I know these substances as colouring dyes for microscopy. I never realized they had a function as sensitizing dyes. I love these parallels.

Same here!

Photo Engineer · Feb 1, 2011

What is not as well known, is that in spite of the many publications of the Agfa paper formulas such as Brovira is the fact that Brovira used Erythrosine. The reason it is missed is that the dye was applied, along with about a half dozen other "missed" ingredients, in an overcoat. Thus, Brovira was Ortho-sensitive.

PE

Photo Engineer · Feb 1, 2011

So much for relying on memory.

After searching several sources I find that Agfa used a green sensitizer for several of its paper products. Some used Erythrosine and some used a dye which as I reported before is unknown (hier ist unbekannt) and they also used a method of applying the dye(s) either in overcoats or added to the emulsion just before coating. It is not clear regarding this either. In any event, at least two dyes were used in Agfa papers and up to two methods were used to incorporate them.

Sorry for the lack of clarity in the last post. I was working from memory. Now I have notes, such as they are.

PE

hrst · Feb 2, 2011

Did I understand you correctly, are you referring that some sensitizing dyes were added in overcoats? Is it possible that they work there as sensitizers? AFAIK the dye must adhere to the silver halide to pump energy in it in order to work. Is this possible from overcoat?

Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2011

There is some indication that dyes were added in overcoats.

It is known that early dyed coatings were coated first and then dipped into a solution of the dye. The emulsion was sensitized by this dip/soak treatment, so why would an overcoat not work?

The German wording is unclear. They use a word which my dictionary translates as "basting sauce" or "gravy". This could mean something coated over the emulsion or something added to the emulsion.

PE

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

I have positivly tracked down one of those "unknowns".
I do not think erythrosine was the other.
It seems to me it is possible you might actually be looking at a different formula than what you think
as I don't recall any such wording.... but I will have another quick look.

e-mail me if you want to compare notes or describe that "indication".

OK,
I had a quick look and I see where you are getting that erythrosine bit...
It still seems you might be mixing two different formulas.

Ray

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

hrst said:
Is it possible that they work there as sensitizers? AFAIK the dye must adhere to the silver halide to pump energy in it in order to work. Is this possible from overcoat?

You are correct.
Generally speaking, dyes do need to be in close contact with the AgX, however there are some rather interseting ideas or theories on what might be possible under special conditions, although in the "dip" method, there was enough time allowed for the dyes to be fully absorbed/adsorbed... so no fancy theories are needed.

I guess it is possible that some coating methods would not allow for such absorption to occur and so the desired sensitization might not take effect.
at least not immeadiately.

However, OTOH, it is well known that many chemicals can be either
mixed into the emulsion
or
coated as a separate layer and still be of some utility.

Sometimes the chemicals can even be added to the developer or the packaging.

Q.G. · Feb 2, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
The German wording is unclear. They use a word which my dictionary translates as "basting sauce" or "gravy". This could mean something coated over the emulsion or something added to the emulsion.

What is the original German wording?

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

possibly begiess... ?

But I would probably translate that "dowse", "douse" or even simply "add".

Q.G. · Feb 2, 2011

Ray Rogers said:
possibly begiess... ?

But I would probably translate that "dowse", "douse" or even simply "add".

It's no more than "pour on" or "pour over".

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

Right.
But if you look at the word "Baste"
there is some similarity... and I can imagine it being translated that way by...
a chef perhaps?

Actually now that I looked back at PEs post I can see where "sauce" might come from:

Begiess Zusatze (umlaut on the a)*

*((I forgot how to make umlauts in MS Word... anyone know?))

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2011

Ray;

Since one formula states the dye is "unbekannt" or unknown, and another formula for a different paper specifically states Erythrosine and gives the exact amount and dilution, I have only suspicions that they are using Erythrosine in Brovira. It is certain to me that Brovira is sensitized though, by some means.

It is also clear that the formulas give in Glafkides omits two items. They are, the dye that is unbekannt and the overcoat with its materials for matting, gloss and keeping. In some formulas, the stabilizer is actually in the emulsion. In any case, it is omitted. This is all according to my notes on Brovira.

But then, I have seen 2 or 3 versions of these. One is in the BIOS reports and the other is in the FIAT reports. The third comes from derivative sources some posted here including Glafkides. Since the third sources seem mostly sins of omission so to speak, I think that is what they are. The types from the original reports do differ though and this has been reported elsewhere.

PE

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

I have a splitting headach again but I will try to respond.
I think we agree with the first paragraph,
but why it is certain to you that Brovira was sensitized
could perhaps be explained in some detail...
Is it just the obvious and undisputed "unbekannt"s,
a lack of speed in your recreated versions,
or published spectral data from actual period emulsions?

My memory says you are right about Glafkides, but I don't hold that against him.
In fact I think it was he who warned about how messy the reports were.
Besides, he only listed a few of the formulas anyway, and as you know there are a lot of them.

I do not think that all of the Broviras were sensitized- although some were.

One of the dyes I know by both name and structure but another just by its chemical name....

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2011

My notes read: "Sensibilisierungs-Farbstoff-S to-Gemish 1:1000 X, Losung X) Konsitution hier unbekannt" Or Sensitizing Dye S mixed 1:1000, composition is unknown here.

You are right, some were and some were not. Portrigas also had a dye.

PE

Q.G. · Feb 2, 2011

Ray Rogers said:
Right.
But if you look at the word "Baste"
there is some similarity... and I can imagine it being translated that way by...
a chef perhaps?

Actually now that I looked back at PEs post I can see where "sauce" might come from:

Begiess Zusatze (umlaut on the a)*

Yes, a chef might translate it as "baste".
But it would be putting his interpretation into the translation, that isn't necessarily in the original.
That doesn't mean it is incorrect. On the contrary: it probably is quite accurate.

Ray Rogers said:
*((I forgot how to make umlauts in MS Word... anyone know?))

Alt-0228 = ä
Alt-0246 = ö
Alt-0252 = ü

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

Q.G.:
Does that mean I push "ALT" followed by the #s? , like this...
or perhaps at the same time, like this...
well that did not work...
(maybe because I am using a Japanese keyboard its different?)

more guidence needed!

Ron:
Right. That looks to be page XL, btw.

Q.G. · Feb 2, 2011

Press Alt, and hold it until you have entered the 4 digit code (on the numerical keypad).

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2011

Geiss is also the word for coat. So, we have an ambiguity here that I have not figured out.

The Japanese word for their coating operation is "Lay" and I used that early on at Kodak after a tour of the Japanese plant. It got quite a laugh from my co-workers. Each "secret" manufacturing facility uses their own terminology. When I teach, I use Kodak terminology. For example, we do not "confection" at Kodak, we finish or package.

As an afterthought, Erythrosine is so hard to adsorb to an emulsion, it is often added before precipitation so I cannot see it being added as an overcoat. Other dyes can probably be added in an overcoat.

PE

Q.G. · Feb 2, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Geiss is also the word for coat. So, we have an ambiguity here that I have not figured out.

Nope. "Giessen" is nothing more than "to pour".
You can indeed coat something by pouring something over that something. But it's not included nor implied by the verb "Giessen" itself.
So there may be ambiguities, but that's not one of them.

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

I think in this case it takes on its meaning from the context;
if you pour on a "coating" you can squeeze the noun so hard it will willingly give you the verb!

Ray Rogers · Feb 2, 2011

neru?
I thought it was nuru?

Confection is British?

Sounds so sweet!

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2011

Q.G. said:
Nope. "Giessen" is nothing more than "to pour".
You can indeed coat something by pouring something over that something. But it's not included nor implied by the verb "Giessen" itself.
So there may be ambiguities, but that's not one of them.

In German, Geissmachin is Coating Machine. I agree that geiss also means pour. This is part of the ambiguity. Usually, pour is translated as Kippen or tip or dump. Again it is confusing.

PE

erythrosin & eosin

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency