epson 1800, 1900 or 3800

jaimeb82 · Dec 28, 2010

I am looking to buy an epson printer to do digital negatives, platinum, and carbon in the future. I found one R1800 used for $100. The question is, knowing that I have to learn everything about digital negative printing? Do I go with the 1800, the 1900 or wait a little more until I find a 3800? What about ink? is the ink price for those printers really different in price? On one side the $100 R1800 is tempting, but I don't want to buy just because is cheap and then find out it doesn't create good B&W digital negatives. Is the 1800 capable of making good B&W negs, or prints in general?

Thanks in advance.

Jaime

gmikol · Dec 28, 2010

Jaime--

The $100 R1800 is probably your best bet, *if* it is being used with original Epson inks. You'll burn a fair amount of ink if you have to flush the heads of non-OEM ink. If the cartridges are low (less than 33%) I'd offer $75. At $12 or $13 per cart, that's a cost to be considered.

The ink for a R1800/R1900/R2880 costs about twice as much per mL compared to 3800/3880.

One user here, "pschwart" seems to be quite happy with his R1800 for digi-negs. I and another user had mixed results with an R1900 (the inks seem to be quite different from the R1800). You'll be hard-pressed to find a used 3800 for less than $500, I would guess, so if 13" wide is all you need, go with the R1800 to learn, then re-evaluate your needs down the road.

Good luck...

--Greg

pschwart · Dec 28, 2010

If I encountered an R1800 in excellent condition for $100 (or less ) I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I would ask to see the output from the "Auto Nozzle Check and Cleaning" selection in the driver to ensure that all is well. Mine makes excellent digital negatives, maybe better than those I get from my 3800, and the workflow is very simple. Here's a good place to buy ink:
http://www.atlex.com/

gmikol said:
Jaime--

The $100 R1800 is probably your best bet, *if* it is being used with original Epson inks. You'll burn a fair amount of ink if you have to flush the heads of non-OEM ink. If the cartridges are low (less than 33%) I'd offer $75. At $12 or $13 per cart, that's a cost to be considered.

The ink for a R1800/R1900/R2880 costs about twice as much per mL compared to 3800/3880.

One user here, "pschwart" seems to be quite happy with his R1800 for digi-negs. I and another user had mixed results with an R1900 (the inks seem to be quite different from the R1800). You'll be hard-pressed to find a used 3800 for less than $500, I would guess, so if 13" wide is all you need, go with the R1800 to learn, then re-evaluate your needs down the road.

Good luck...

--Greg

jaimeb82 · Dec 28, 2010

it comes with some colors almost full, and some colors almost empty and with some gloss optimazer? and some paper. I think I am going to get it, he always used the EPSON ink during last two years.

So if ink from the R1800 is different, does that means different towards worse than the ink on the R1900?

Thanks for the advice,

Jaime.

pschwart · Dec 28, 2010

I think Epson replaced the red and blue inks in the 1800 with green and orange in the 1900 (I think I got the colors right). This is supposed to provide an enhanced gamut, but I have no idea how it impacts UV blocking as I have never tested a 1900. Other than this, I believe the printers are the same. I can already achieve log 4.0 density on the 1800, so I wouldn't expect a 1900 would be any better.

jaimeb82 said:
it comes with some colors almost full, and some colors almost empty and with some gloss optimazer? and some paper. I think I am going to get it, he always used the EPSON ink during last two years.

So if ink from the R1800 is different, does that means different towards worse than the ink on the R1900?

Thanks for the advice,

Jaime.

jaimeb82 · Dec 28, 2010

Is it true that the inks dried slowly in the 1800? Does it make pizza wheel marks because of that. Can I use PDN system with the 1800 due to ink/density to UV light?

Thanks,
Jaime.

pschwart · Dec 28, 2010

No, the 1800 inks are not slow drying if you use an appropriate OHP like Pictorico, Inkpress, or Arista. Some films have a much thinner receptive coating (Photo Warehouse Crystal Clear film) and these are a problem for all printers: ink can pool or dry slowly, often resulting in pizza wheel marks. This can happen to *any* Epson printer that uses the pizza wheels to direct paper into the output tray, even the 3800. There is also variation from printer to printer, but my R1800 has been in service for a few years and I don't get banding or pizza wheel marks.

Sure you can use PDN, but why would you want to if you can get sufficient density without colorizing your negatives? I see no benefit -- you will use up some colors at a much faster rate, it is more difficult to read a colorized negative than a b&w equivalent, and some PDN colors create smoother images than others so you will need to sort this out in testing.

jaimeb82 said:
Is it true that the inks dried slowly in the 1800? Does it make pizza wheel marks because of that. Can I use PDN system with the 1800 due to ink/density to UV light?

Thanks,
Jaime.

gmikol · Dec 28, 2010

jaimeb82 said:
it comes with some colors almost full, and some colors almost empty and with some gloss optimazer? and some paper. I think I am going to get it, he always used the EPSON ink during last two years.

So if ink from the R1800 is different, does that means different towards worse than the ink on the R1900?

Thanks for the advice,

Jaime.

Based on some numbers Phil gave me a while back, the R1800 inks have more (=better) UV density than what can be achieved with the R1900, especially with regards to using just the black output from the Epson driver, which is what I think Phil does. I'm working on a way of doing a definitive comparison, but that's still a ways off, I think. In the budget category, take the 1800 over the 1900, IMO.

You won't need the gloss optimizer for digital negatives, but it makes for fantastic glossy photo prints (helps eliminate gloss differential in lightly-inked areas).

Jaime...where are you located? There may be a Hybridian nearby who'd be willing to help you sort things out in person.

--Greg

gmikol · Dec 28, 2010

pschwart said:
I think Epson replaced the red and blue inks in the 1800 with green and orange in the 1900

Epson kept red in the R1900 (don't know if it's the same or not), and added an orange. Now, it's not clear to me why you need yellow orange red magenta in one printer. If they'd added green instead of red (for a true CMYKOG printer) it would have had a huge gamut and produced amazing glossy prints...but probably would have cannibalized high-end sales. Ahhh....marketing...

--Greg

Curt · Dec 29, 2010

Jaime, I tried the R1900 but had some problems with it, Greg had better luck with it though I believe. I'm looking out for an R1800 after Philip gave a great post to me on it. Thanks Philip. I would go for the offer you saw, I'm looking too. If you weren't on the opposite side of the continent I'd stop by, maybe when the weather gets better later in the year, I want to see you make some carbon prints from digital negatives on that printer.

Greg, are you still using the R1900 or did you go to the 3800? I hope Vaughn does another Newport workshop, it was great there and a fantastic group too. I see that your carbon printing has really taken off. I started out not wanting to make glop and not even considering digital negatives. The glop making began just before the workshop in Newport and now I'm on the digital negative journey too. I met Mr. and Mrs. Sullivan in Santa Fe while at a workshop with Per Volquartz, Jamie was there too and it was really 'cool'.

I'm a little slow coming around to digital negatives but I'm on to figuring it out now.

Best to all,
Curt

pschwart · Dec 29, 2010

"just the black" meaning composite black using all ink channels (I use photo black without the gloss optimizer) -- not to be confused with black-only printing which is not appropriate for digital negatives, and isn't supported by the Epson driver for the R1800 anyway.

gmikol said:
Based on some numbers Phil gave me a while back, the R1800 inks have more (=better) UV density than what can be achieved with the R1900, especially with regards to using just the black output from the Epson driver, which is what I think Phil does. I'm working on a way of doing a definitive comparison, but that's still a ways off, I think. In the budget category, take the 1800 over the 1900, IMO.

You won't need the gloss optimizer for digital negatives, but it makes for fantastic glossy photo prints (helps eliminate gloss differential in lightly-inked areas).

Jaime...where are you located? There may be a Hybridian nearby who'd be willing to help you sort things out in person.

--Greg

jaimeb82 · Dec 29, 2010

Well, now the guy says that printer has some clogging of the yellow nozzle, take it as it is for $100, this is after I told him I wanted a nozzle print. fixing the nozzle is probably hard to do. I may pass on this one I think.

gmikol · Dec 29, 2010

Curt said:
Greg, are you still using the R1900 or did you go to the 3800?

I was using the R1900 for carbon, and it worked fine for the thinner Bostick & Sullivan tissue, but not so well for thicker home-made tissue, due to the inability to build enough ink density without running into pizza wheel problems. So I found a great deal on a nearly-new 3880 and switched.

For other processes which don't require as much density as high-relief carbon, the R1900 would work, but the R1800 is still probably the better bet in comparison.

--Greg

gmikol · Dec 29, 2010

jaimeb82 said:
Well, now the guy says that printer has some clogging of the yellow nozzle, take it as it is for $100, this is after I told him I wanted a nozzle print. fixing the nozzle is probably hard to do. I may pass on this one I think.

It's a tough call...a simple cleaning cycle could fix the problem, or the nozzle could be badly clogged. No way to know for sure.

Would the seller be willing to run a cleaning cycle and re-run the nozzle test, or are some of the carts too low to run a cleaning?

I see 1 or 2 R1800's per month on Craigslist here in Portland, I'd imagine there are that many where you are, too.

--Greg

jaimeb82 · Dec 29, 2010

Seller just had a baby a week ago and told me it is hard to set up the printer to do any tests. So he is selling as it is for that price. Craigslist here in nyc has 1800, 1900 and 3800 here and there. I don't want to buy a printer that needs a $300 repair issue, just in case.

pschwart · Dec 29, 2010

The seller probably could not get the head unclogged, which is why he is selling.
If the 1800 has been stored with the ink installed other nozzles may be clogged, too. He would be lucky to get $25.

jaimeb82 said:
Seller just had a baby a week ago and told me it is hard to set up the printer to do any tests. So he is selling as it is for that price. Craigslist here in nyc has 1800, 1900 and 3800 here and there. I don't want to buy a printer that needs a $300 repair issue, just in case.

gmikol · Dec 29, 2010

Jaime's attempt to buy this printer reminded me of when I tried to sell my R1900 a couple of months ago (unsuccessfully). At the risk of going OT, I thought I'd share it here...

Potential buyer (local to me) contacts me asking about printer, ink levels, clogged nozzles, etc. I answered all his questions indicating that it was in good condition (had been working perfectly when I packed it up 2 days before). A quick summary of our email conversation follows:

Me: I can meet you on my lunch break any day this week, what works good for you?
Buyer: Tuesday, is good...can you come to my place, set up the printer and prove that it's in good working condition?
Me: No, don't really have time for that over my lunch break...how about you provide me with 1 image and I'll print it out and bring it with me.
Buyer: No...don't want to get scammed...clogged nozzles...blah blah blah. You have to come to my place, print on my computer, and use my images.

(A quick google search of his name revealed that he had just set up a photography "studio", located at the same address as his apartment. I started to suspect that he was looking for some free prints for his portfolio, so I made the following offer: )

Me: OK, how about this, please make sure you have the drivers and relevant profiles installed before-hand, and your images ready, so we don't waste time. We'll make 2 prints of your images. If you choose not to buy, please pay me $1 for my ink and time, and you destroy the prints.

Never heard from him again...

I wasn't too unreasonable, was I?

Anyway, sorry for the OT...

--Greg

pschwart · Dec 29, 2010

You have to come to my place, print on my computer, and use my images.
You were way too accomodating. I would have said bye bye as soon as this was proposed.
For a local transaction, a print and return privileges should be sufficient.

Do you still have that 1900?

gmikol said:
Jaime's attempt to buy this printer reminded me of when I tried to sell my R1900 a couple of months ago (unsuccessfully). At the risk of going OT, I thought I'd share it here...

Potential buyer (local to me) contacts me asking about printer, ink levels, clogged nozzles, etc. I answered all his questions indicating that it was in good condition (had been working perfectly when I packed it up 2 days before). A quick summary of our email conversation follows:

Me: I can meet you on my lunch break any day this week, what works good for you?
Buyer: Tuesday, is good...can you come to my place, set up the printer and prove that it's in good working condition?
Me: No, don't really have time for that over my lunch break...how about you provide me with 1 image and I'll print it out and bring it with me.
Buyer: No...don't want to get scammed...clogged nozzles...blah blah blah. You have to come to my place, print on my computer, and use my images.

(A quick google search of his name revealed that he had just set up a photography "studio", located at the same address as his apartment. I started to suspect that he was looking for some free prints for his portfolio, so I made the following offer: )

Me: OK, how about this, please make sure you have the drivers and relevant profiles installed before-hand, and your images ready, so we don't waste time. We'll make 2 prints of your images. If you choose not to buy, please pay me $1 for my ink and time, and you destroy the prints.

Never heard from him again...

I wasn't too unreasonable, was I?

Anyway, sorry for the OT...

--Greg

gmikol · Dec 29, 2010

pschwart said:
You have to come to my place, print on my computer, and use my images.

You were way too accomodating. I would have said bye bye as soon as this was proposed.
For a local transaction, a print and return privileges should be sufficient.

Do you still have that 1900?

Yeah...it was at that point that it felt a little scammy, but I *really* wanted to sell the printer. Plus, I wanted to call the guy's bluff.

I still have the R1900...I got busy with other stuff, so I didn't get a chance to put it back up on CL, and then decided to wait 'til after the holidays. Of course, now my laptop is dying, and I'm wishing I had the $$$. I've got 2 full sets of ink with it.

I just didn't feel like it was a good match for high-relief carbon, but it's probably fine for any other alt-process stuff.

--Greg

epson 1800, 1900 or 3800

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