End of Roll Problem: One Frame Into Another

FilmOnly · Feb 18, 2011

I use a couple of Nikon FE/MD-11 combos, and notice that sometimes part of frame 35 will get "smashed" into frame 36, with 35 and 36 being the last two shots taken. I start at frame 0, and so these would be the 36th and 37th shots on the roll. On a 4x6 print, about a half inch or so of each of these frames will show an adjacent double exposure effect (error). On my last b&w roll, the two best shots (frames 35 and 36) were ruined because of this.

I gather the problem stems from the there being not enough film left on the roll for that last frame. I find this puzzling, as I often hear of folks getting 37 and 38 frames out of a roll of 36. Ken Rockwell is always saying how he gets 38--and even 39!--"perfect" exposures by shooting the leader and perhaps one extra at the end. How is it that I often cannot get 37? Is it the MD-11 that is the problem? I welcome any comments.

elekm · Feb 18, 2011

This is why photographers shouldn't try to squeeze and extra frame or two from every roll.

With the motor drive, I would guess that it has a clutch mechanism that stops advancing the film when it reaches the end of the roll, to stop from tearing the film from the roll. But it still advances the shutter to its fully tensioned point to keep it from jamming. That means if you're mid-frame, it will overlap the next frame.

In other words, stop at 36. Otherwise, you run the risk of ruining TWO shots by trying to get an extra frame out of every roll. You just have to decide if the risk of losing two shots is worth trying to get one more.

2F/2F · Feb 18, 2011

It must have to do with the motor drive. Maybe it counts 36 frames and then eases up on the last one, meaning that since you start on 0, it thinks the roll is finished after shot 35.

It would seem that you can most simply avoid this problem by not shooting past the 35th frame. You are already getting extra shots by exposing frame 0, so it is not like you would be getting gyped.

Or after the 35th frame, you could try advancing the film a bit manually. Sometimes I have to do that with my Canon F-1, just a hair past where the motor drive leaves it near the end of the roll. I can hear the difference in the motor drive when it does it. It doesn't have the final click.

You could also turn the drive off after 34 and advance the end of the roll manually.

Markster · Feb 19, 2011

Motor drives generally aren't that smart. They just turn till they meet friction, then stop. I think it's a camera issue. The design of the camera (or perhaps not the design but general wear and tear on the moving parts?) is such that the shutter trigger is reset before the frame is all the way advanced...

I've had a few waaaaay back when I started where the last 2 frames were almost touching, and maybe 1-2 where they overlapped. However that camera was one where the shutter also wouldn't close all the way and I ended up returning it for my current love (the AE-1P).

Suggest a checkup at the camera doc's... Might be able to tighten some screws or get it realigned. Too many variables for me personally to guess, but that's what I'd go with. Most cameras don't recock the shutter trigger til you hit that point on the frame advance, and if that's not what you got, something ain't working properly.

FilmOnly · Feb 19, 2011

I appreciate the replies. The camera is freshly overhauled. I got it back about a month ago. This is one of the reasons why I am so surprised about the last frames getting smashed. It is very annoying.

I had this same frame smashing problem with some of my 35mm Pentax cameras, and so the problem is not a "Nikon" issue. Again, it is very irritating, and I cannot imagine getting 38 or 39 perfect frames out of a roll of 36.

The AE-1P and A-1 are nice cameras. I gave them up because I just could not get use to the shutter release, at least in hand-held situations. To me, the release seems to induce camera shake. In comparison to other cameras, I had to press down harder when shooting with the A-1 or AE-1P.

Les Sarile · Feb 19, 2011

I would go with 2F's recommendation about using the motor drive to 34 and then manually advancing from there. As Mark states, I believe it's only film tension at the end that stops the advance. Unless you push the button in the base of the FE to release the tension - or use the multiple exposure lever, you should not be allowed to get a full stroke. If these drives somehow advances the camera's shutter far enough to give you another shutter click without a full stroke then it would seem something is slipping in the body and not the motor drive. I don't have the MD11 but I have the following motor drives - MD12 (FM2), MD4 (F3), MA (A-1), MW (OM-1) and RTS (FR), and all do not allow me to depress a shutter unless a "full stroke" is achieved.

BTW, I recently "maximized" the number of exposures I could get from a roll of Kodachrome 25 by opening the canister and loading it the camera in the dark and managed to get 39 frames from a 36 exposure roll. I typically get 37 and it is not uncommon to get 38.

Mainecoonmaniac · Feb 19, 2011

You do take a risk of frames running into each other trying to squeeze in extra frames at the end of the roll. I've torn sprocket holes doing it. What I do when loading my Canon f1 is to load the film until the tongue is wrapped around the spool, shut the film chamber door, tighten the film spool and advance the frames twice or three times and start shooting so you can get some extra shots beginning of the roll then stop shooting at the 36th or 37th frame. I think if I smoked I would smoke my cig down to the filter I'm so cheap

tkamiya · Feb 19, 2011

I don't know what film you are using but most of the films I use, if I shoot 37th in 36exp film or 25th in 24exp film, the last frame is VERY close to end of the film where it is taped to the reel. I'm GUESSING what may be happening in your case is that winder tries to wind the last frame and there isn't enough left, so that it cinches the portion already taken up by take up reel to make up the difference - thus causing the overlap.

Personally, after shooting 24th or 36th, I just rewind it.

I wouldn't go by what Ken Rockwell says. Elsewhere in his web page, he actually says he does it for his entertainment and if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't be looking at his site. His claims are often very inflated. If he actually gets 38 or 39, good for him, but I really don't believe this is actually the case. Maybe in very small snap-shooter maybe? (where the distance between exposure opening and the canister is very small)

FilmOnly · Feb 19, 2011

Thanks, again, folks...

I agree with you, tkamiya, but the problem is that the camera (or drive) does not want me to have the 36th frame. By starting at 0, I can get 36 shots by stopping at 35. I cannot see why I cannot have the 36th frame. Shooting one shot on the leader (frame 0), should not inhibit me from getting the 36th frame (and 37th shot). After having this happen more than once--on cameras that are in good shape--I am starting to think I should move to another 35mm system...again.

I gave some more thought to my experience with my Pentax gear, and I am almost certain that I was able to shoot the 36th frame, and had trouble only when I tried to shoot the 37th frame (for a total of 38 shots).

Les Sarile · Feb 19, 2011

I have a dozen Pentax SLRs too with no problem achieving 37-38 frames without multiexposing them when not intended. In fact, of all my cameras, only the automatic AF bodies - except the p&s 35Ti, enforce 36 frames only before automatically rewinding. The Nikons F3, FA, FG and FE2 mandates that you are at frame 1 before allowing full control of shutter speed. Before then only max mechanical shutter speed allowed. I believe the purpose of this was so that the camera doesn't meter a long exposure that will leave the user hung up when typically advancing the fresh roll to position 1. You could of course still make a good exposure by compensating for that setting.

2F/2F · Feb 19, 2011

That photo has been posted several times. What exactly is its meaning?

Les Sarile · Feb 19, 2011

You mean all my cameras . . . ?

Steve Smith · Feb 19, 2011

Is that all you have? You need some more!

Steve.

Les Sarile · Feb 19, 2011

Didn't say that was all I had. That was all relative to the topic . . . ;-)

Steve Smith · Feb 19, 2011

Les Sarile said:
Didn't say that was all I had. That was all relative to the topic . . . ;-)

Les Sarile said:
You mean all my cameras . . . ?

All implies that is the total!

Pleased to hear that you have more though!

Steve.

Les Sarile · Feb 19, 2011

Steve Smith said:
Pleased to hear that you have more though!
Steve.

My CFO doesn't share that sentiment. Although she bought a nice display case for me to use. She thought it was better that way then having it all over the place . . . ;-)

Markster · Feb 21, 2011

If you just had it serviced, and this just popped up, there is a chance that during the servicing they did something or made a slight mistake, a mis-tension or a loose screw/pin, and caused the problem.

Might be worth a call if you can say "I just got this back from you and it's doing something that it didn't do before the servicing..." and they reply "Sure, bring it in we'll see if we made a mistake" (that is, it might be worth it if they'll check it out for free)

FilmOnly · Feb 23, 2011

Thanks, all...

Well, I just tried the "shoot frame 36 without using the MD-11" technique. All seemed to work fine. I will now be sending the roll out for processing. We will see what happens. I expect all should be fine. I heard the shutter click, and rewound the roll. I took 37 shots--that is, 0-36.

End of Roll Problem: One Frame Into Another

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