end of roll developed with a green cast

Edi · Aug 12, 2020

Hello guys,

Have any of you had this issue before where the lab gives you back the developed roll but at the end of it its colored green? the rest of the roll seems perfectly fine. I haven't digitalized it yet but I'm attaching the image of how it came.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

AnselMortensen · Aug 12, 2020

That end of the film was exposed to light

Edi · Aug 12, 2020

AnselMortensen said:
That end of the film was exposed to light

thanks Ansel. is it normal to not lose the information but only have the film colored?

koraks · Aug 13, 2020

The green color suggests exposure to red light. Someone messed up at some point when handling this roll.

Agulliver · Aug 13, 2020

Yep I've seen that occasionally. Exposure to red light or very mild fogging through the backing paper of medium format film. The way your green cast stops quite abruptly it looks like the film was partially unrolled with red light in the room (possibly a safe light for B&W paper?)....the user realised and turned it off before unrolling the rest.

removed account4 · Aug 13, 2020

the only time I have ever seen a green cast (if it wasn't the film, like foma or forte film sometimes having a green cast ). it has been because of dichroic fog from using the wrong type of developer ( tmax instead of tmaxrs )... if it is just the tail of the roll, its probably nothing to worry about

koraks · Aug 13, 2020

jnantz said:
the only time I have ever seen a green cast (if it wasn't the film, like foma or forte film sometimes having a green cast ).

Are you sure you weren't just seeing remnants of an antihalation dye? It's bright green in foma roll film.

Donald Qualls · Aug 13, 2020

Guys, that's color film. As previously noted, this is low-level fogging through the back of the film, probably from a cassette loaded processing machine with a cassette that was momentarily not quite sealed while connecting to the machine. You'll always see a short (half inch to inch) tail that's fully fogged with these machines (operator has to unroll the film far enough to capture the tail end), but if the cassette doesn't get sealed correctly (its own closure, or to the machine) you can get a light leak that will fog the film that's been pulled off the roll. This will usually fog through the "red scale" side, giving this green cast in the negative.

@Edi Take the uncut strip back to the lab, I'm pretty sure they owe you a roll of replacement film.

koraks · Aug 13, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Guys, that's color film.

You know, I know, everybody knows, but jnantz mentioned a tangential example from the B&W world suggesting that a chemical problem could also cause this kind of issue (which, in this case, I do not agree with).

Interesting thought about this being fogging in normal light but through the back of the film. What I don't understand, though, is how it would *only* be fogged through the film, while the emulsion side would supposedly have been completely shielded from direct light. Based on this, I still find fogging with red light to be a more likely cause of the problem.

If it happened in the lab, obviously he should be entitled to a refund and perhaps compensation for the wasted film. But it's up to the lab to handle that, and it depends on the question if the problem was really caused by/in the lab. I would say that it's likely, but it cannot be proven on the basis of the available evidence.

removed account4 · Aug 13, 2020

koraks said:
Are you sure you weren't just seeing remnants of an antihalation dye? It's bright green in foma roll film.

when I got the metalic green fog it was with tmy and tmx back in the 90s, I didn't know about east Europe films at the time... I had to use farmers reducer to get rid of it...

koraks said:
You know, I know, everybody knows, but jnantz mentioned a tangential example from the B&W world suggesting that a chemical problem could also cause this kind of issue (which, in this case, I do not agree with).

my bad - I did not see this was in the color film forum, please disregard my comment on dichroic fog and carry on

Donald Qualls · Aug 13, 2020

koraks said:
What I don't understand, though, is how it would *only* be fogged through the film, while the emulsion side would supposedly have been completely shielded from direct light. Based on this, I still find fogging with red light to be a more likely cause of the problem.

Except there's no red light anywhere around when loading a 120 film for a color processing machine.

In fact, the loading of the cassette, as I understand it, is done in room light, and generally fully fogs up to an inch of the film tail. The cassette, however, could easily have a very limited light leak. The leak would have to be pretty weak to leave most of the image, as here, and if it's that weak, the reflections or scatter would be weaker still and likely not visible due to the overwhelming "redscale" cast. IMO, there's no question it's a lab error -- the sharp cutoff where the film went around the roll or under the backing pretty much eliminates any other source. I don't think I could *intentionally* fog a roll that way in my home darkroom (unless possibly by starting to unroll under printing safelight).

koraks · Aug 13, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Except there's no red light anywhere around when loading a 120 film for a color processing machine.

Who knows what they did there. Someone messed up; how exactly will remain a guessing game.

A minor like leak in a cassette to normal room light would likely have resulted in a more varied fog pattern like we often see with leaky sheet film holders, pinholed bellows, improperly closed development tanks etc. etc. This here looks way too even for something like that. But it looks *exactly* like the regular examples we see of people inadvertently handling color film under red light...

foc · Aug 13, 2020

If the film was processed in a leader card processor,( I don't see the film weight clip marks normally associated with dip & dunk) then the fogging could have been caused (IMO) by the processor loading door being opened before it was safe to do.
If it was the film dark cassette not being closed correctly then I don't think the fogging would be as uniform as in the picture.
Notice the film at the top of the photo doesn't have the tape splice or backing paper tape. See also the edge numbers so the fogging happened at the end of the film.
Low level fogging can be caused by standard tungsten light as described above.

Donald Qualls · Aug 13, 2020

Film tail is first off the roll and goes into the processor first, not last.

foc · Aug 13, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Film tail is first off the roll and goes into the processor first, not last.

Not if the start of the film was cut (backing paper /film tape) and spliced onto the leader card

Donald Qualls · Aug 13, 2020

To get to the start of the film, you have to unroll the entire roll. The tail is the first thing you can reach. This is 120, after all, not 35mm.

foc · Aug 13, 2020

When you tear off the exposed seal, you unroll the film and backing paper until you reach the film start where it is attached to the backing paper.
Because this is done in a darkbox, it is often easier to put the unrolled film into the dark cassette with the film start ( and tape) just out of the dark cassette light trap and so cut off the backing paper tape and then splice onto the leader card. It can also mean there is less handling of the film prior to processing.

Edi · Aug 13, 2020

Thanks for all the responses guys. The theory that makes more sense to me is a lab error where they exposed the film to a red light. probably before loading they forgot to turn off that light or someone turned it on by accident (i'm just guessing a common scenario). One of the reasons on why this also makes more sense is because the end of the film is the first part that you mount into the developing reel and tha'ts why the green cast is only visible on that part and not the entire roll.

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 13, 2020

It was exposed to magenta light or maybe the magenta layer is missing?

koraks · Aug 14, 2020

Mainecoonmaniac said:
maybe the magenta layer is missing?

There's a few theories that make sense, but not this one, I'm afraid.

Tom Kershaw · Aug 14, 2020

I've processed a lot of C-41 film in my Jobo and haven't seen this green film phenomena. I load film in complete darkness.

foc · Aug 14, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
I've processed a lot of C-41 film in my Jobo and haven't seen this green film phenomena. I load film in complete darkness.

I don't think this problem was caused by developing on a reel in a small tank.
I am of the opinion it was an operator error on a commercial processor and no darkroom red safety light was involved or harmed in the processing of the film!

koraks · Aug 14, 2020

You guys may well be right in that no red safelight was involved. The evenness of the fog and its limited overall density with a clear cyan tint does stump me though.

Donald Qualls · Aug 16, 2020

koraks said:
The evenness of the fog and its limited overall density with a clear cyan tint does stump me though.

The cyan tint in the negative would print as red, which is pretty much what you tend to get when C-41 films are lightly fogged (you see this most commonly with light leaks). Further, the antihalation layer and yellow filter layer in the emulsion will combine to limit through-the-back fogging to mainly the cyan-forming layer, which is the bottom one (against the base). A dim/short exposure through the film base (and AHU) would both tend to produce a mainly cyan cast in the negatives.

end of roll developed with a green cast

Edi

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