Emulsion Makers Book Club, Selection One: Photographic Emulsions

Photo Engineer · Dec 12, 2010

Denise;

I have said repeatedly that there are basically two types of emulsions. Simple ones that can be made in the lab and more difficult ones that might be doable in the lab with some extra skills and equipment. I ask that you please read my posts in this thread for examples and quote me rather than misquote me.

My book and workshops taught the simpler emulsions which anyone can make. The reaction of individuals to those simple emulsions has been a spread of opinion that even simple as they are, they are difficult and others have said that they were easy. An example of a student of mine who said they were easy (and I agree) is you. You have proved to everyone that basic emulsion making is easy.

BUT, I have added that the textbooks out there from any time earlier than about the 40s are filled with errors and/or omissions and textbooks after that era are non-existent. And, therefore, I have warned the readers. Wall in particular omits addition times and temperatures in many formulas and all of them assume active gelatins.

The two bottom lines to this are, if I believed as you say I do in your post, why do I spend time talking people into believing how easy it is and why am I writing a book? As for your last paragraph, I do respect everyones goals and try to address them in every question asked of me. If some questions are simple, I give a simple answer and in others the answer is complex.

Remember, the simplest emulsion making is nothing more than heat, dump and stir then coat. Its that simple!

PE

dwross · Dec 12, 2010

Kirk Keyes said:
Here's my contribution to the book club:
"Photographic Emulsions" by E.J. Wall (1929)
http://www.keyesphoto.com/KDKtech-E._J._Wall-Photographic_Emulsions.html

Again - it's old and needs to be read with a grain of salt (preferably a silver halide...).

Thanks for posting this here, Kirk. You did a great job on reproduction. It's one of my favorite books, and actually I haven't found any bad information. I've only made about a dozen of the recipes, but none have failed. Just reading the book for the 'put your head in the time space' is valuable. It's exactly like reading your grandmother's cookbook. A certain degree of familiarity with cooking and baking techniques was assumed in those old books. How to cream an egg with sugar didn't have to be spelled out. For me, learning the 'cooking' skills of emulsion making has been a great part of the fun.

I'll point out two short sections especially worth reading. I love the preface, pp iii-vi (pp 7-10 on your pdf notation) It was one of the very first things I read when I started making emulsions, and I return regularly to it for inspiration.

"Practically all the knowledge is secreted in the great factories. The worker at this point stands practically in the position of the man who first discovered emulsion photography, and he must battle his way through and pull himself up until he has acquired a knowledge equal to what is known at the present day. This is far from a simple matter, but once I set to the task it proved tremendously fascinating. In order to have as few variables as possible, I purchased an enormous roll of paper and a large quantity of
gelatine and set to work."

Also, and relevant to the latest posts in this thread, see pages 13-14 (25-25 in the pdf) Note especially:
"So far as the writer is aware, there is one and only one reliable test for a gelatine, and that is to make a batch of emulsion with a sample of it under the conditions followed in practice. Every gelatine maker knows, and quite possibly every emulsion maker, that" one man's meat is another man's poison."... Gelatines may be roughly divided into three classes, hard, medium, and soft, and these can be differentiated by their setting and melting points and the quantity of water they will absorb."

Jerevan · Dec 12, 2010

In chapter 2 of the book in the OP, there is a description of the effort to make a "deactivated" gelatin. Compare this to chapter 1 where there is a discussion of Knopf versus Nelson gelatin. I guess no-one living today knows what exactly these consisted of, what sort of trace elements they contained. Comparing the two chapters, it seems they really are groping in the dark (as even scientists do sometimes), to describe what variable gets you where. But I may be wrong about that, I am not a chemist or even a natural scientist.

Jerevan · Dec 12, 2010

I think the idea of a home-made vs the factory-made comes is comparable to the albumen papers. When it became possible to make as a manufactured item to be sold at a price - it sold in cartloads. Because then as a photographer, you weren't tied to having to crack all those eggs. But today, if you want it, you need to make it.

dwross · Dec 12, 2010

Definitely groping in the dark! You've probably heard the tales and urban legends that swirled around the subject back in the day. Great fun. That's why Wall started out his research with a huge quantity of one gelatin. That was the only way to control that vital variable. Yuh gotta love the inactive photo gelatin that Photographers Formulary sells! But, I'm starting to experiment with Knox and sheet gelatin, 'gold' and 'silver'. There's a lot of potential there. Gelatin is amazing. I've been in contact with a great guy at Eastman Gelatine Corp. He knows as much about the history of the old gelatin brands as anyone I know. There are actually quite a few modern near-equivalents. I'm working on a paper about gelatin, but you know how it goes...

A classic read and very interesting is 'Gelatin in Photography', Vol 1, by S. E. Sheppard, 1923. Abebooks usually has a couple of copies. Here's the current page: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...tin&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&x=0&y=0

Jerevan · Dec 12, 2010

Yes, I remember from reading the later editions of Emil Mayers' work about bromoils, that in the mid-late 1920s he still referred to gelatin and its colloidal properties as a science field in advance. All of this goes a bit beyond what I am able to understand but it is interesting nonetheless.

Photo Engineer · Dec 12, 2010

Some quotes from Wall:

"As a means of spending money it [emulsion making] is only equalled by dabbling in stocks." and ".. to turn out good results in a darkroom that has been used for ordinary operations of development and fixing is utterly hopeless."

Neither of these is correct! I hope that puts Wall in perspective!

In addition, the back of the book is completed by several ads for photographic gelatins.

I have posted here, tests with 2 types of photograde gelatin showing the big differences in speed, fog and the effects of heat treatment. It still behooves one to test the materials they use when they change batches. But then, if you mix your own processing solutions I would suggest tests as well for some ingredients.

I've found that albumen papers are harder to make than Silver Halide papers due to the egg beating and keeping of the albumen.

PE

dwross · Dec 12, 2010

Jerevan said:
But today, if you want it, you need to make it.

Perfect!

The really nice thing about being a photographer today is all our options. We can crack eggs or hardly lift a finger. My son sent me the nicest images of the San Francisco farmers market you could ask for. He just aimed his phone at a cart of persimmons and pears and sent the picture to me by email! Can you even imagine what our predecessors would have thought of that? Probably a combination of 'that's a miracle' and 'well, where's the fun in that?"

Jerevan · Dec 12, 2010

"As a means of spending money it [emulsion making] is only equalled by dabbling in stocks." Now that's a cynic talking of his own dire experiences!

I have not made albumen myself, but I guess contamination of the albumen itself is a big issue.

Ian Grant · Dec 12, 2010

Thanks for making the book available to others Denise. I've actually had a copy since the mid 1970's and along with the AGFA data from the FIAT report I was able to make some excellent emulsions, which we used commercially.

My take of this book (The Photographic Emulsion) was it was an excellent series of Research papers, investigating aspects of the variables of Emulsion making and a good, informative source which I used when exploring & testing the variables to optimise the emulsions I was making to give the desired characteristics we needed.

Ian

Jerevan · Dec 12, 2010

Would it be possible to get as a .pdf version so that I could print it? That would make it easier to read, if not understand.

dwross · Dec 12, 2010

Jerevan said:
Would it be possible to get as a .pdf version so that I could print it? That would make it easier to read, if not understand.

Happens to be, Terry Holsinger has made a pdf version from my scans. He just sent it to me. I'm late on getting out the door for the rest of the day to finish the %&#*! task started yesterday. I'll get Terry's pdf posted tonight or tomorrow am.

Most of you probably know Terry from unblinkingeye fame. Terry made the first contemporary (and excellent!) dry plate negatives that I am aware of.

Thanks Terry!

Jerevan · Dec 12, 2010

Good job - that was fast.

dwross · Dec 12, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Thanks for making the book available to others Denise. I've actually had a copy since the mid 1970's and along with the AGFA data from the FIAT report I was able to make some excellent emulsions, which we used commercially.

My take of this book (The Photographic Emulsion) was it was an excellent series of Research papers, investigating aspects of the variables of Emulsion making and a good, informative source which I used when exploring & testing the variables to optimise the emulsions I was making to give the desired characteristics we needed.

Ian

Thanks for the affirmation, Ian. I'd love to hear more about your research.

Ian Grant · Dec 12, 2010

dwross said:
Thanks for the affirmation, Ian. I'd love to hear more about your research.

Next time I'm back in the UK I'll try & see what notes I can find. I've not looked at them for over 25 years & I'm not sure what I have left but did find some photocopies from books etc.

I can remember the parameters I needed to work on and change, viscosity (the emulsions were sprayed),and then speed and contrast.

Later I ran into a problem when the Active gelatins I used were no longer available, I found my own way of activating Gelatin which worked successfully for my emulsions, using Sulphites.

Ian

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 12, 2010

Ian ,

Did you succeed to make an paper equivalent of Brovira 40 years ago ? Could you please share know how with us ? What is the tricks of your Brovira formula post two years ago ? What about gelatin , how did you do that ? If you post them , I will send you Gustav Mahler Complete CD set as I am listening now where 1000 musicians play together !!

You dont need to hurry , few posts a week complete the task until the summer I hope.

Thank you ,

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 12, 2010

And an bottle of Chivas Regal

Ian Grant · Dec 12, 2010

Umut, I wasn't trying to make a paper emulsion like Brovira, however I did trial Ilfospeed Grade 3 emulsion after I was approached by Ilford, they were interested in supplying me with emulsion, and my main emulsion had similar speed & contrast. So I guess making a Brovira type emulsion wouldn't have been difficult, the importance of things like the FIAT report Agfa formulae is more to do with how different companies control variables to give different contrast grades and emulsion speeds particularly varying the digestion & ripening times & temperatures.

So even a simple emulsion formula can be dramatically improved by finding the right time/temperature combinations for a particular gelatin.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Dec 12, 2010

Umut;

Using inactive gelatin, I found that a Brovira type emulsion was properly sensitized by using about 100 mg of Sodium Thiosulfate Pentahydrate per mole of Silver for 1 hour at 60 degrees C. This will give a speed close to Ilford MGIV paper. The addition of Rhodium Chloride at 10^-6 moles per mole of Silver will give an additional contrast boost. It should be added just prior to the addition of Silver Nitrate during the initial precipitation.

The Sulfur treatment is applied after the wash. Variations in this treatment will cause variations in contrast from low to high.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 13, 2010

Ron ,

You deserved Turkish Coffee with instructions. Its up to you to find a Arap Half Nude Cariye to cook for you. Send me your address and coffee is yours

Photo Engineer · Dec 13, 2010

No, that was a gift to you and other APUG members with no return expected!

An added side comment. Do not use gold sensitization with any paper print material, as the toe and overall contrast will be very low.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 13, 2010

Thank you for your 16000 gifts as there are some post bombers out there. Even more than a Santa did.

holmburgers · Dec 13, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Some quotes from Wall:...
Neither of these is correct! I hope that puts Wall in perspective!

In addition, the back of the book is completed by several ads for photographic gelatins.

Just as aside (I have no agenda to disregard Wall or anything), but reading F.E. Ive's "Autobiography of An Amateur Inventor", which is a fascinating and rare book, he mentions that he and Wall basically hated one another. They were fierce competitors and Wall intentionally omitted Ive's work in his books and did not attempt in the least to give him his credit.

I've not read any of Wall's books other than one of his dictionaries, and I recall that the F.E. Ives entry was rather short. Friedman on the other hand gives him his due, and indeed he had lots of brilliant ideas. He pioneered three-color photography with his Kromskop and also full color printmaking with his work on half-tone screens, etc. One cool dude!

If you can get the book, it's worth a read for sure. Just don't interlibrary loan it from my library and steal it. It seems to be very rare, and the book is full of interesting appendixes and taped-in additions like, "The Author would like to have a complete list of persons who own this book"[sic].

Photo Engineer · Dec 13, 2010

Wall even omitted details of his own work, I suspect in order that it be difficult for others to reproduce it and so he would stay in the forefront of this type of work.

I have located a reference here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Hill that might be of interest to some of you.

This is supposed to be the first true full color photographic system and was based on daguerreotype imaging.

PE

holmburgers · Dec 13, 2010

Ahh, yeah, the hillotype. I read something about this a while back, I think he basically went crazy and died because of the chemicals he was working with. Or am I just spreading rumours?

Ive's pioneered three color, leading our modern system in favor of the search for direct color like Hill & Lippmann.

Are you familiar with Wood's diffaction color? It's a completely different way of producing color that sounds really interesting and fairly easy to do (even relatively speaking... pretty easy). He made diffraction gratings in dichromated gelatin of the 3 color records thru 3 ruled line screens; each ruled line screen was different and chosen so that from a given viewing location, the proper primary would be diffracted. Combine those 3 clear gelatin matrices and viewed from the right position it's a full color image.

update: Frederic Ives actually invented the half-tone process, and his son Herbert E. Ives transmitted the first television signal, pioneered an early color TV and also tried to disprove Einstein's Theory of Relativity. The latter of which we can just forget for his legacy's sake.

Emulsion Makers Book Club, Selection One: Photographic Emulsions

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency