Emulsion Makers Book Club, Selection One: Photographic Emulsions

holmburgers · Dec 10, 2010

I don't think one can judge the future's interest in these things at this time. I don't know, but there are a lot of young people who are keenly interested in this stuff, and I'm not saying it's certain, but you never know what people might attempt in the future. Even if there's no real market or interest, it is possible for someone to almost become obsessed with these things, and maybe they'll succeed.

I'd like to think that once the "digital takeover" is complete, these old processes will seem that much more amazing to people and perhaps there will be some kind of a resurgence. Hmm, probably wishful thinking.

I guess as long as black & white panchro materials are obtainable, then color is possible. That is my main concern... I don't want to live in an age where every single color print has come from a printer and a digital file.

Photo Engineer · Dec 10, 2010

A great many people still ride horses but do not get around in a horse drawn carriage. So, horses are still used, but not entirely the way they were used 100 years ago. The same will probably be true for film. Certain methods will survive and others will not. It is not our responsibility to choose which ones, but rather to do the best we can to provide as many choices as possible. And to do that, we need to provide as much correct and up to date information as possible. This includes updating formulas and dispelling myths.

PE

holmburgers · Dec 10, 2010

Touché

wildbillbugman · Dec 10, 2010

PE and Holmburgers (Where did you get that name?),
Please excuse my uncharacteristic optimism. It must be the painkillers! But,PE, I was not referring only to patents and publications. I was referring to internal records which would never be disclosed,accept if nobody cared. I am sure that a company like EK would have internal documents for every aspect of every process. They would leave nothing to the skill of any individual. The records must exist. Autochrome, on the other hand, probably did rely on the expertise of individuals. That was a different time.
As for the the degree of interest in one process or another, you may be gauging your estimates on numbers,rather than intensity on the part of a few people.
Bill

AgX · Dec 10, 2010

But that documentation is made by people for themselves (and theirlikes). Once the few from R&D of those companies will have left, a lot of knowledge will be gone.

holmburgers · Dec 10, 2010

Holmburgers is a portmanteau of my last name, Holmquist, and hamburgers. I picked the name in middle school and I've chosen to live with it

That's what I mean... undoubtedly Kodak has complete documentation of every step in excruciating detail on how to create Kodachrome, Ektachrome, Portra 400, etc. Sure the patents are there, but the extra research to get to the finished product is proprietary.

Why can't wikileaks expose this instead of "diplomatic secrets", ooooh, like anyone cares about that!

Photo Engineer · Dec 10, 2010

I must reinforce previous comments here on this. No single person at Kodak knows the entire formula for any product. It is broken into steps with code numbers for ingredients. So, the instructions may read for one person, make emulsion K1650 and pass it on to stage 2. Stage 2 says give it finish XK56 with RL115 treatment and pass to stage 3. Stage 3 is coat K1650F 1:1:1 with K1500F and K2200F with NF633 at 20 mg / mole and NAZ at 100 mg/mole. Silver levels to be adjusted to 300 mg/ft square and gelatin at 5%, with drying condition D7 at speed 3. In the end, none of these people may know what any of this means nor what product it is for.

I have used formulas just like the above but far more complicated involving up to say 20 ingredients or steps / layer with nothing but codes and numbers.

To go further, I know that some products have more than one formula depending on conditions. The results may be identical, but the formula is different. This usually applies to emulsions though, and is caused by variations in gelatin, addenda, scale and silver.

I am trying to take some of that mystery out of this but there it is. If Kodak closed its doors, I doubt if anyone in a single lifetime could reconstruct more than a fraction of the product line, if that.

PE

Photo Engineer · Dec 10, 2010

holmburgers said:
Touché

Actually, no sense of Touche was intended.

PE

holmburgers · Dec 10, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Actually, no sense of Touche was intended.

PE

Yeah, I'm not sure I use that word properly all the time... mommy and daddy could never afford fencing lessons!!

wildbillbugman · Dec 10, 2010

0.K.,
We will never know how the Pyramids of Egypt were constructed. And who needs them anyway. I understand both points. I still WILL make a panchromatic emulsion fast enough for in-camera color separation.All the Digital cameras will fry in the upcoming super solar flair. Now I will get back to reading.
God Bless Oxycodone!
Bill

Jerevan · Dec 10, 2010

I am not trying to sidetrack the discussion even further here, but having worked in museum and archive settings I know enough to know that when a company decides to leave a product (or field of action) by the wayside, there is more luck than anything if even the smallest bits of the really interesting documentation is retained. Even if the technical documentation does survive, there is also a "silent knowledge" that almost always gets lost if there isn't a tradition of apprenticeship or similar.

Regarding the Kodak codes: it sounds like a pretty fool-proof way of keeping people in the dark.

Jerevan · Dec 10, 2010

It's late around here so excuse the rambling. Something Denise touched on earlier is the practical vs the theoretical parts of emulsion making. The knowledge of the properties of bromine is good in of itself and a theoretical discussion may lead somewhere good and unknown. But the practical making, basically the re-invention of emulsion making that we need is something else. The two parts may intersect but the prime goal as is still making an emulsion, right?

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 10, 2010

PE ,

I had been attemped to order analysis of PN55 at a chemistry lab at France which work for Kodak France.
Is it possible to crack the ciphers with chemical , physical analysis ?
For example , Brovira , It is still possible to find and you can sell the formula to a factory at china.
You dont lose money but satisfaction is guaranteed !
Electricity and raw materials are 10 times cheaper there and environmental problems are not a concern.

Umut

AgX · Dec 10, 2010

The knowledge obout the ingredients of a film doesn't tell you that much about making that film.

Jerevan · Dec 10, 2010

No, that's what I guess I was trying to say in a few more words.

Photo Engineer · Dec 10, 2010

There are several points here to address.

Knowing the ingredients does not tell you anything about how or when they got into the film. AgX is correct!

Analysis may not tell you what all is there, especially when some trace elements are there at very low levels. You cannot, a priori, say if it is there deliberately or is there as an impurity.

I have read the Brovira formula and have devised a Kodabromide like formula of my own. There is little similarity between the two formulas. The latter, mine, will be included in my book. I did not include the Brovira formula. My formula is doped with Rhodium Chloride at about 10^-6 moles of Rhodium per mole of silver. You can see how low that level is and how difficult it would be to detect in most analyses.

Both Kodak and Agfa used Rhodium salts for contrast control just as I do in my formula. Nowdays, Kodak uses organic compounds which were unavailable to me.

I have no information as to what plans might be in place if Kodak stops production of analog products, but I would ask the same question of Fuji and Ilford as a rhetorical question. After all, where really are the Agfa formulas for their color papers and films and what might happen to the Ilfocolor formulas if they stop production?

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 10, 2010

PE ,

Where did you find the Brovira Formula , is it patent , open or archive document ?

I think testing different batches of same paper tells what is impurity , what is for real.

Umut

dwross · Dec 10, 2010

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Where did you find the Brovira Formula , is it patent , open or archive document ?

'Photographic Chemistry', Volume One, by Pierre Glafkides, 1957, pp 342-343. Five grades: Extra Hard, Hard, Normal, Special, and Soft.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 10, 2010

dwross ,

Can you copy and write here what is reported at these two pages

Umut

michaelbsc · Dec 10, 2010

PE, are you serious that I can probably make pan 400ISO sheets at home given the techniques?

And that I can make a color sheet film as well? At what speed? I assume this is a negative without orange mask?

dwross · Dec 10, 2010

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
dwross ,

Can you copy and write here what is reported at these two pages

Umut

The Glafkides book, at least the chapters on emulsion making, are next but one on my scanning and posting schedule for TLF. I'm currently working on 'Successful Negative Making', by T. Thorne Baker.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 10, 2010

Thank you dwross.

I am waiting your Agfa Scans.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Dec 10, 2010

AgfaPhoto is the new company responsible for the photographic products.

I sent to a message asking archive research.

Monday or Tuesday answer could appear at my mailbox and I will be here.

Photo Engineer · Dec 10, 2010

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
PE ,

Where did you find the Brovira Formula , is it patent , open or archive document ?

I think testing different batches of same paper tells what is impurity , what is for real.

Umut

I had access to the BIOS and FIAT reports of WWII. They are at the GEH, RIT and EK libraries IIRC. The formula has changed little over the years except for keeping and reciprocity chemistry.

PE

Photo Engineer · Dec 10, 2010

michaelbsc said:
PE, are you serious that I can probably make pan 400ISO sheets at home given the techniques?

And that I can make a color sheet film as well? At what speed? I assume this is a negative without orange mask?

Yes, you could probably make an ISO 400 emulsion, but I think that you would find that making glass plates would be better than film.

The color material would probably be a dye bleach material and would give slides. They would be very grainy and the film would be slow. A coupler based system would be harder to devise due to the need for custom chemistry. The couplers are just not available. A Kodachrome like product would be easier to make in some respects but harder to process.

PE

Emulsion Makers Book Club, Selection One: Photographic Emulsions

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