Elitism

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

Twice today I've seen the term 'elitist' used as a term of disapprobation or even abuse.

This puzzles me. If I want to learn something, I want to learn from the best: the elite.

To be sure, if that elite doesn't want me, I may be less than enchanted with them, but from what I can see here on APUG, most of the people who have a lot of experience and knowledge are more than willing to share it with those who have less -- and indeed to learn from anyone, regardless of how humble or mighty the source of the information, in those areas where they are less knowledgeable. I don't see the 'elitism' that some deprecate.

Obviously to ask for examples of 'elitism' would be to invite a flame war, but I'd be interested in others' views on the very concept of what an elite is for, should be for and shouldn't be for.

Cheers,

Roger

gr82bart · Jul 2, 2006

The internet makes people think they are a lot more elite/more important/more righteous/more persecuted/more censored/more picked on/more whatever than they are in reality. It makes for good drama.

Ever notice it's always men? Geeky, nerdy men too...

Regards, Art. (D'oh! That last sentence will get me to the Star Chamber....)

Wigwam Jones · Jul 2, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
... but I'd be interested in others' views on the very concept of what an elite is for, should be for and shouldn't be for.

The elite exist to keep the peasants in their place, of course. Of course, there is the ancient tradition of 'noblesse oblige', which works pretty well, until someone notices that they're the one being 'obliged', which tends to increase the dust kicked up in the general vicinity of that unfortunate and his or her 'noblessor', if I may coin a phrase.

The mere existence of an elite gives the lie to the notion that all are equal, that there are no differences between human beings, this pervasive modern insistance that one ignore the evidence of one's own senses and intellect and pretend that every idea is equally valid, that every opinion is equally important, every thought equally worthy.

...So the Maples formed a Union
And demanded equal rights
'The Oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more Oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw...

-Rush, "The Trees," from "Power Windows"

The elite ride horses, wave swords about, and pillage from time to time. Or was that a movie I saw?

As to what the elite 'should' be for - what 'should' the sun be for? What is the purpose of the moon? The elite are.

What shouldn't the elite be for? Whatever they choose not to be for, I suppose.

But, of course I must add that I have always disliked the elite. And in any revolution, well, you know who is first for the chop. The guy with the monocle and the look on his face like he just smelled something awful, whose every third sentence drips with condescension.

pentaxuser · Jul 2, 2006

Roger. That largely been my take on APUG. I have never been talked down to when seeking an answer. Just occasionally the supplier of information has assumed more knowledge on my part than is warranted and equally rarely has answered most but not all the questions contained in my post.

The acid test is what response do I get when I need further info due to either reason specified above and it's been pretty well faultless.

To borrow from the old joke:In this club, when I have asked the question about the fuel consumption of the Rolls Royce, I have yet to be told that if I have to ask the question then I can't afford to buy it.

pentaxuser

Donald Miller · Jul 2, 2006

The elite tend to believe their own press and in so doing become legends in their own minds.

roteague · Jul 2, 2006

Hi Roger, it think it is one more example of how the meaning of words change over time. Here in the US, it seems that the print media (among others), uses the term 'elitism' as a means of disparaging some group.

I agree with your observations about the base of knowledge here. I was just thinking, I don't do a lot of B&W, but if I ever did, I would bet that I could get dozens of very experienced people that would be willing to teach me advanced darkroom techniques. People can be generous with their money, but there are so many people here that are generous with their time, a much more important commodity.

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

Wigwam Jones said:
there is the ancient tradition of 'noblesse oblige'.

I had always understood that noblesse oblige referred to the obligations that come with nobility.

What have you against monocles? I started wearing one because I'm strongly right-eyed and am losing ever more accommodation in that eye. If I close the left eye to assess a scene, I can barely see it with my right eye. Hence a monocle. Also a lot harder to lose than spectacles, because it's on a piece of string.

Then again, it's curious that some people see monocles as a class indicator. Or as another friend pointed out when I mentioned fencing at school, "The working classes don't fence."

Actually my grandfather was a miner (admittedly clay, not coal) and my great-grandmother on the other side joined the Communist Party in 1917 (admittedly when her father's iron foundry went broke through his unwise investments). Both facts seem to surprise some people.

Your point about condescension escapes me.

Don't fight elites -- join them!

Cheers,

Roger

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

roteague said:
Hi Roger, it think it is one more example of how the meaning of words change over time.

Dear Robert,

Or when they cross the Allantic. Much like 'liberal' or 'intellectual'.

Cheers,

R.

Muihlinn · Jul 2, 2006

there are people that needs to feel more diminishing others, or writting in the most confuse way possible. That only shows their limitations. The same on the other way.

Ole · Jul 2, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
...

Don't fight elites -- join them!

...

Good advice as always. That's why I put what I did in my signature!

And it also serves well to defuse the "elitist accusations": Yes, and so what?

blansky · Jul 2, 2006

I think that usually an "elitist" is a term thrown at people by inferior people, and let's face it, the world is full of inferior people.

People who are cultured, understand the finer things in life are often labelled elitist by the great unwashed. Interestingly enough, most people aspire to become part of the so called elite but alas what real chance do they have.

It is much like the people here who aspire to the Star Chamber. I'm terribly sorry but, FAT CHANCE.

Your humble servant,

Michael

JBrunner · Jul 2, 2006

Personally, I strive to be among the elite, at certain things, however at most things I am content to be merely competent. I think that when one thinks that because they are among the elite in a particular pursuit that it makes them better at everything, and better than everybody, then the word, like so many english words, becomes another thing.

Wigwam Jones · Jul 2, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
I had always understood that noblesse oblige referred to the obligations that come with nobility.

And what are members of the nobility if not also members of an elite class?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility#Western_nobility

The meaning of the term 'noblesse oblige' has clearly been modified through popular usage to encompass the elite of nearly any society, including supposed meritocracies such as Western democracies give rise to.

I find it therefore germane and appropriate to the conversation.

What have you against monocles? I started wearing one because I'm strongly right-eyed and am losing ever more accommodation in that eye. If I close the left eye to assess a scene, I can barely see it with my right eye. Hence a monocle. Also a lot harder to lose than spectacles, because it's on a piece of string.

I have nothing against monocles, any more than I have anything against walking sticks, pince nez glasses, or morning coats. All give the impression of an affectation. Affectations are often seen as pretensions of the leisure class, who are often mightily resented by those who work. I am not suggesting that you do not work, sir, just to be clear. I am pointing out the effect of the affect, as it were.

Then again, it's curious that some people see monocles as a class indicator. Or as another friend pointed out when I mentioned fencing at school, "The working classes don't fence."

Some traditions happily pass into antiquity. I am pleased to discover that a facial dueling scar is now seen as the result of an unfortunate accident, rather than a rite of passage into the moneyed Germanic cultures; a permanent cigarette-holder, a welded-on cravat.

Actually my grandfather was a miner (admittedly clay, not coal) and my great-grandmother on the other side joined the Communist Party in 1917 (admittedly when her father's iron foundry went broke through his unwise investments). Both facts seem to surprise some people.

You act as though you had been accused.

Your point about condescension escapes me.

Imagine my surprise.

Don't fight elites -- join them!

Roger - who wrote "A Modest Proposal?" A hint - it was not a starving Irishman.

c6h6o3 · Jul 2, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
If I want to learn something, I want to learn from the best: the elite.

I don't equate 'elite' with the 'best'. I agree that we all should seek to learn from the best, but the use of the word 'elite' introduces all kinds of political connotations which have nothing to do with photography. Perhaps this is what people are reacting to instead of artistic considerations. From dictionary.com:

elitism

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

3.the attitude that society should be governed by an elite group of individuals

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

c6h6o3 said:
From dictionary.com:...

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

Elite: The choice part or flower (of society or of any body or class of persons).

So it comes down to your dictionary against mine. Personally I'll back the OED.

Cheers

Roger

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

Dear Wiggy,

There seems to be a continuing misunderstanding here. The 'oblige' in 'noblesse oblige' is an obligation upon the nobleman to behave well to his inferiors; it is the very opposite of what you implied in your original post.

As for Wikipedia, well, I will muster all the scorn I can. A worthless trifle, by the ignorant, for the ignorant. Facts are not democratic. The meaning of words may be, but I'd even there I'd rather read a definition by someone who knows what he is talking about, and has the respect of his peers, than one by a fellow who has, in effect, wandered in off the street.

Cheers,

Roger

Dan Fromm · Jul 2, 2006

In the degraded substandard dialects written on bulletin boards, "elitist" is just another insult. A shorter form of "you seem to think you're better than I am, I think you're mistaken."

Interesting that "snob" isn't much used. Moi, je suis tres snob. I wear a Casio diver's wristwatch instead of a Rolex, look down on the ignorant fools who wear Rolexes in the hope that wearing a Rolex will impress such as me.

Cheers,

Dan

Steve Smith · Jul 2, 2006

It is possible to be elitest without actually being part of the elite.

Hope that makes sense!

Steve.

c6h6o3 · Jul 2, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
From the Oxford English Dictionary:

Elite: The choice part or flower (of society or of any body or class of persons).

So it comes down to your dictionary against mine. Personally I'll back the OED.

Cheers

Roger

That wasn't my point, which is that in common usage (at least here in the US) the word connotes other things to which I think these posters are reacting.

I prefer the OED, too. Not being among the flower of society myself, it's difficult for me to afford.

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

c6h6o3 said:
I prefer the OED, too. Not being among the flower of society myself, it's difficult for me to afford.

The flower need not be rich: one should not confuse wealth with such things as social class, education, wit, charm or membership of any elite.

Even at half price (anyone who has written anything for OUP can apparently get this discount, and I contributed to the Oxford Companion to the Photograph) I still can't afford a proper one in 14 volumes. I have only the book-club photographically reduced version in two volumes.

But your argument comes back to the point of words changing their meaning as they cross the Atlantic, something that should, perhaps, be aired more often.

The British tend to think they're right, because they got there first, and Americans tend to think they're right, because there are more of them. Both tend to forget Australian and South African English, and indeed, English as spoken in the biggest democracy in the world, India.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

Wigwam Jones said:
Roger - who wrote "A Modest Proposal?" A hint - it was not a starving Irishman.

Dear Wiggy,

No, but it WAS an Irishman.

A counter-hint: 2006 is not 1729.

This is something Celts too often forget. I speak as one.

Cheers,

Roger

Curt · Jul 2, 2006

Roger what University did you graduate from?

Curt

Dave Wooten · Jul 2, 2006

A Modest Proposal was a Johnathon Swift essay

Andy K · Jul 2, 2006

Dave Wooten said:
A Modest Proposal was a Johnathon Swift essay

It was also satirical, something often lost on casual readers.

Roger Hicks · Jul 2, 2006

Curt said:
Roger what University did you graduate from?

Curt

Brum. Why?

Cheers,

R.

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