Ektar 100 Film Base Color

Adrian Bacon · Apr 5, 2017

I recently came into a batch of Kodak flexicolor SM chemicals that are expiring 02-2018. I decided to run a few rolls of Ektar that I had stacked up through with it and the film base isn't quite the dusty rose color that I've gotten with other kits and from pro labs. I'm wondering if this is something I shouldn't worry about or if it's something wrong with the process I did with these chemicals?

The chemicals in question are Flex dev starter LORR 1.2L, dev replenisher LORR (makes 5L), SM tank fixer, SM tank bleach, and final wash.

I mixed up the dev and replenisher following the package instructions (it makes 6.5 L with a little replenisher left over), the bleach and fixer where used as is.

The process was as follows:

1. get everything up to 100 degrees in a 10 gallon water bath (water pump and bucket heater on a thermostat to maintain temperature, probably not scientific accurate, but way easier to maintain 100 +- 1 than through faucet and uses less water)
2. load the film into a paterson tank
3. pre-soak the film and tank in the the same water bath while staging everything to do the process (usually 4-5 minutes)
4. pour the pre-soak out, pour in the dev and put the lid on
5. every 15 seconds do 1 full inversion and put tank back in bath
6. at 3:05, pull tank out of bath, pour dev out
7. pour in stop bath (1:4 vinegar:water), agitate for 30 seconds let sit for another minute or so while staging the next step
8. pour out stop bath, pour in bleach, put lid on tank, do 2 full inversions every 30 seconds for 6:30
9. pour out bleach
10. rinse with 100 degree water for a couple minutes (dumping water and refilling every 30 seconds)
11. pour in fixer, put lid on, do 2 full inversions every 30 seconds for 6:30
12. pour out fixer
13. rinse the same as step 10, but for closer to 5 minutes
14. final rinse 1:30+, let it sit in it to keep it wet while clearing space to hang up to dry

Attached images between film from pro lab and above described process. Pro lab on the left, my run on the right. Definitely not the dusty rose film base I was expecting to see. I've not yet actually tried to do anything with the images to turn them into positives, but just looking at the negatives directly, they're images of familiar subjects, and don't seem off kilter color wise compared to other negatives of the same subject and light, but I won't know for sure until I scan them in.

Has anybody else had this happen?

bvy · Apr 5, 2017

I think you might be looking too hard; I wouldn't think twice about those results. In fact, I think you'd see the same thing if you sent the film to two different labs and compared the results. Too many variables at work. Your process looks fine (almost identical to mine; I might add a quick rinse after the stop) and at a glance, so does your negative.

Wet printing, if you're set up to do so, is the real test. If you can get accurate (or acceptable) colors with reasonable filtrations then you're good. Keep good notes. The real test is establishing consistency in your own process over time.

chassis · Apr 5, 2017

Agree with bvy. How do the scans look?

captain ZZM · Apr 5, 2017

Maybe you didn't use developing starter or too little， if this is true the contrast of the image will be too high.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 5, 2017

bvy said:
I think you might be looking too hard; I wouldn't think twice about those results. In fact, I think you'd see the same thing if you sent the film to two different labs and compared the results. Too many variables at work. Your process looks fine (almost identical to mine; I might add a quick rinse after the stop) and at a glance, so does your negative.

Wet printing, if you're set up to do so, is the real test. If you can get accurate (or acceptable) colors with reasonable filtrations then you're good. Keep good notes. The real test is establishing consistency in your own process over time.

Thanks. I'd love to be able to wet print, but I just don't have the space to get it properly set up, so, for now, its scanning.

@chassis i haven't scanned them in yet as I'm in the middle of converting my workflow over to using a dslr on a copy stand with the negative lit by studio strobe combined with a custom dcraw based post to get the scanned negative converted directly into a linear light floating point positive in the ACES color space. The dslr is a canon 5dsr. Early results look ridiculously good, but stilling working out a few bits and pieces. At any rate, here's not really the place to elaborate much further than that.

bvy · Apr 5, 2017

captain ZZM said:
Maybe you didn't use developing starter or too little， if this is true the contrast of the image will be too high.

His notes indicate that he mixed it exactly as prescribed.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 5, 2017

bvy said:
His notes indicate that he mixed it exactly as prescribed.

Yep. I used starter. Mixed it according to package instructions. This isn't my first time mixing or doing dev (though the first time with flexicolor chems), the only reason I said anything is because I'd previously consistently gotten a dusty rose film base, but that was with unicolor kits and my own alt process. If I send anything out, it goes to SF Photoworks and I get the same dusty rose film base on ektar with them too.

EdSawyer · Apr 5, 2017

Negative base looks fine and with acceptable range I'd say. I don't think C-41 calls for stop-bath, so that might be affecting your results.

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2017

The process looks ok to me, but the support of the sample on the right is dark. The fogged area at the top is much too blue with not enough yellow. Whether this is bad or not will depend on the scans or prints. However, if it is bad, the film may have been fogged or the process too "hot" or both. I'm not sure yet.

Need prints.

PE

Adrian Bacon · Apr 5, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
The process looks ok to me, but the support of the sample on the right is dark. The fogged area at the top is much too blue with not enough yellow. Whether this is bad or not will depend on the scans or prints. However, if it is bad, the film may have been fogged or the process too "hot" or both. I'm not sure yet.

Need prints.

PE

I don't think I fogged it because I've done 4 120 rolls and 3 135 rolls and got the same results on both formats. It's possible it's too hot if you're referring to temperature. I set the bucket heater thermostat to 101 because it's only 1 degree resolution/control. When I stick a thermometer in the bath it reads just barely a smidge above 100 after I've had the pump and heater going for an hour or so. I can do another run with 3 rolls of 135 in the next day or so with the heater set at 100 to see what it looks like. If you mean the mix is too hot, I followed the package instructions. It's possible I didn't get that right, but the instructions are pretty clear.

As far as the fogged area at the top, it was exposed to 2800K light when I put the twin check on it (yes I twincheck my own film), is it possible that would affect that?

Adrian Bacon · Apr 5, 2017

Here's a 135 sample from the same mix of chemicals. SF photoworks left, my run right. The ceiling is being lit by a LED at 5000K.

I've only got 1 liter left of the starter/replenisher mix left from this batch, but 7 more 5L replenisher packs and plenty of starter to still mix. I'm going to have a hard time going through it all before it goes bad in 02-2018 as by my calcs this is enough for at least a hundred rolls, and I'm going to be hard pressed to blast that many through before feb.

The cat numbers are:
660 1074 for the starter and 823 1672 for the replenisher.

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2017

By "hot" I mean too active whether by temperature or mixing.

The fogged area in post #11 looks better but the clear area is too dark.

PE

Anon Ymous · Apr 5, 2017

Adrian Bacon said:
Here's a 135 sample from the same mix of chemicals. SF photoworks left, my run right...

I had a case like that with Ektar 100 few months ago when I extended development time with my reused developer. About the same happened with Portra 160 too. It turns out I should have kept development time at 3:15. If your times are right, chances are you run the process at a higher temperature.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 6, 2017

Anon Ymous said:
I had a case like that with Ektar 100 few months ago when I extended development time with my reused developer. About the same happened with Portra 160 too. It turns out I should have kept development time at 3:15. If your times are right, chances are you run the process at a higher temperature.

That's what I'm thinking... I re-reviewed the package instructions and my mix notes for the replenisher and starter this evening just to double check myself, and I'm 100% certain I didn't screw up the mix proportions. I've always set my temp 1 degree higher on the temperature controller than what the instructions say and haven't had any issues, but this is the first time I've run proper flexicolor chemicals. All the other times, it's been either a unicolor kit or my own mix. Even at 1 degree higher, when I put a dial thermometer in the bath it is hotter than 100, but cooler than the 101 that the controller is set for. I get that there will be slight variations from lab to lab and run to run, but the second I looked at it the next day after it had dried I thought that's not the ektar 100 film base color I'm used to seeing. I've shot enough ektar 100 over the years, that I know what the normal film base looks like. I did a quick comparison to a known good (SF Photoworks), and sure enough, it's not the same. As others have said, they probably wouldn't think twice that something was wrong, and being a hybrid guy, I've no doubt that once scanned in, I could suss it into shape with little to no effort, and just run all my film this way without too much issue as long as I'm consistent, but I'd rather figure out why it's different, and fix that.

Tonight, I'm going to run 300ml of my last liter and do 1 roll of 135 with the temperature controller at 100 and no other changes. My worry with that is it won't be hot enough with the temp between 99 and 100. We'll see. If it comes out better, then I'll know it's the temperature, if it swings too far the other way, I might go back to 101 and try throttling back the time by taking the tank out of the bath at 3:00 instead of 3:05, then at 2:95 if it's better but still not right. If I'm going to run proper flexicolor, I might have to invest in a more precise temperature controller for the bucket heater.

ericdan · Apr 6, 2017

had the same problem when I was developing Ektar at home. the base color looked different from what the labs gave me. Turned out the base was not the only think messed up. The entire image had a color shift that I could not correct. I assume the temperature wasn't stable enough during development.

chassis · Apr 6, 2017

In what kind of box/container is the 10 gallon water bath held? If an insulated box (for example, a picnic cooler) is used, a pump and temperature controller is unnecessary. Temperature control for the 3 minutes 15 seconds developer step does not require a complicated arrangement.

rpavich · Apr 6, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
By "hot" I mean too active whether by temperature or mixing.

The fogged area in post #11 looks better but the clear area is too dark.

PE

Hmm....would 2 or 3 degrees cause a film to be brown and opaque? (as opposed to orange and fairly transparent)

I'm asking because this might shed light on my own recent troubles with another film.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 6, 2017

chassis said:
In what kind of box/container is the 10 gallon water bath held? If an insulated box (for example, a picnic cooler) is used, a pump and temperature controller is unnecessary. Temperature control for the 3 minutes 15 seconds developer step does not require a complicated arrangement.

A plain plastic tub. I'm in the sf Bay Area and do most of my developing at night when the air temperature is almost never above 70, usually closer to 50 or less (and totally fogged in). If I take the liter sized glass jar holding the developer out of the bath and set it on the counter and put the thermometer in it, it usually loses at least a full degree before the 3:15 run time is up. The simple act of putting the Paterson tank in to presoak cycles the bucket heater and I have to wait for the temperature in the bath to re-stabilize because the tank is so cold. When I first started doing my own development, I was using a 5 gallon bucket, but had too much trouble keeping the temp stable (and it was a little cramped), so switched to the current plastic tub I'm using now. I'm actually considering pushing up 1 size to a 15 gallon just for a little extra thermal mass.

Even when I do black and white development, I have to heat my working solutions to get it up to 68 degrees, otherwise it sits down in the low 60s to high 50s.

Because it's so humid and cold, I can't just hang the film up to dry, it takes days doing that, unless I put it out in the sun (when we have sun) I have a cabinet with a small circulating fan to pull in outside air and a small space heater set to 70 degrees inside it.

Yeah, temperature control. Kind of a pain because it's cold and really wet.

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2017

Kodak has stated (somewhere, but sorry, I have forgotten), that if you cannot control the temp. you can use a starting temp at somewhat above 100F and allow it to drop during the 3' 15" so that the average temp. is about 100 F. I myself do not know how you could do such a thing, but they say it works.

PE

chassis · Apr 6, 2017

Adrian, thanks for the description of your process. I think you are very close to achieving better and consistent results. A couple of suggestions:

- you are using a 10 gallon water bath. Have a look at a 48 quart cooler. You would only fill it roughly halfway, so around 6 gallons of water in the cooler, which would be the tempering bath. Once the chemicals are up to temp, there is a fair amount of thermal mass there, and the insulated nature of the cooler reduces heat loss. There are many coolers of this size on the SFbay Craigslist for $15 and less.

- keep your film developing tank immersed in the tempering bath during the 3:15 development step. This greatly reduces heat loss. I measured my Paterson tank and it loses about 1 degree per minute when not immersed in the bath. When immersed in the bath, measurements show that temperature remains constant during the 3:15 period, even when removing the tank for agitation. A bit of hot water needs to be added to the tempering bath at the start of development. This takes some tweaking and learning.

- don't use a pump and temp controller for a while to see how well you can control things manually. It is simpler. You should be able to do it, even with chilly and foggy weather that you have in SF.

Keep posting your progress!

Adrian Bacon · Apr 6, 2017

@chassis the 48 quart cooler is a good idea, though the pump and bucket heater aren't nearly as complicated as they sound. The bucket heater has an AC plug, the temperature controller plugs into the wall and has an AC plug that it powers on and off along with a temperature probe. You plug the bucket heater into the temperature controller and put it in the water. Drop the probe in the water, plug the controller in and set the max temp you want via the LCD and buttons on the controller. It powers the plug when it's too cold and stops powering it when it hits the threshold that you set. Very simple. The pump is a small fish tank pump with suction cup feet stuck to the inside of the tub. You plug it in. It's only purpose is to "stir" the water.

This setup works just fine for black and white and color if doing the unicolor kit or my own mix, though I suspect the real flexicolor chemicals are more active, so my temperature was just a bit on the hot side for them. We'll see how last nights run at 100 turned out when I get home for lunch and look at it.

@Photo Engineer i would never try that. The temperature here drops way to much way to fast over the 3:15. I temper my BW because if I don't it drops down to 65 from the 68 over the development period.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 6, 2017

Last nights run with the controller at 100. SF Photoworks on the left, last nights run in the middle, and the original run on the right. It's better, though still not there.

mjork · Apr 6, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak has stated (somewhere, but sorry, I have forgotten), that if you cannot control the temp. you can use a starting temp at somewhat above 100F and allow it to drop during the 3' 15" so that the average temp. is about 100 F. I myself do not know how you could do such a thing, but they say it works.
PE

I haven't tried this either. But the place where it's discussed is publication Z131-3. On the second page there is a section on "Temperature Control" describing this approach.
It seems to be designed for dealing with a large amount of cold film put into the development tank. I assume when using a hot water pre-wash, this doesn't really apply anymore.

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2017

Thanks very much for pointing us to that publication.

PE

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2017

Adrian, I would not urge anyone to try that actually. I believe that it is a last ditch measure if you cannot control any other way.

As far as the film goes, it would be good to see some scans though. If they or prints are ok, there is no problem.

PE

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