Ektalure

[M Carter]

I'm posting this in the emulsion thread, which is hopefully appropriate. (Particularly since PE may have some valid insights into this and this is his domain!)

I recently purchased 50 sheets of double-weight 16x20 Ektalure which had been frozen since new. I paid about $165 for the box. Found it to be worth every penny. I have some good stock of Brovira and other classic papers, but I've never experienced anything like Ektalure - the detail looks almost sculpted in, like it's slightly three-dimensional. I know plenty of APUGgers feel the same way about the stuff. (And man, it lith prints like nobody's business. Stunning. Maybe it will bromoil? We'll see.)

I would gladly pay that much for more if it were still in production. I imagine I'm not alone.

I assume the formula exists in some safe at Kodak somewhere. I also understand a big part of Kodak's business value these days is licensing patents, many from decades back. And (I assume) Kodak is completely out of the sensitized paper business, so there would be no cannibalization of their profits.

Would there be any chance that Ektalure could be recreated? I assume it would have to be done by an existing paper manufacturer (unless making a coating factory is child's play). Does anyone know (I can guess as well as the next guy) if Ektalure's end was due to a declining market, or also for things like unavailable chemistry or tightened EPA regulations? And if it's an environmental issue, can those factors be avoided for a more "boutique" production model, perhaps a bi-yearly run of smaller batches where environmental controls and cleanup could be dealt with?

Is there's a demand for a holy-grail, high-end (and expensive) paper - even if it's not your every day paper? I know I wouldn't buy it all the time, but I'd certainly keep some in stock.

Or could Ektalure be recreated by home chefs? I wonder how much I'd pay per sheet if someone was making it as a hobby.

If nothing else, something to toss around for anyone who's a little bored today.

 

[MrBrowning]

I love using the Ektalure I have for lith printing (i do believe it was you who recommended it so highly on the FB Lith Printing page to me not long ago). It has become my go to paper.

As for Bromoil (a process I've tried and tried with no acceptable results) I had found this link (below) in which Christopher James specifically mentions Ektalure G for use in Bromoil. Whether or not other surfaces work I do not know. Just thought I'd mention it.

http://www.christopherjames-studio.com/build/ALTbromoil.html

 

[M Carter]

I got a 25 sheet box of 8x10 G-surface from eBay - it has about 1/2 stop to 1 stop of fog, but it should be OK for lith and bromoil.

I'm just very curious in the Kickstarter age, where very specific niche markets can be found and solidified. Mention the chances of a new Polaroid type 55 to a civilian and they'll say "WTF"?? But hundreds of thousands of bucks have gone into that possibility, and its also bred some new products.

Hope some others pipe in!

 

[removed-user-1]

If Ektalure were still available. I would buy it. Simple as that.

 

[Arklatexian]

If Ektalure were still available. I would buy it. Simple as that.

Me too! Kodak made Ektalure in single weight glossy (F) as well as the double weight matte finishes. Ansco made a paper called Ardura to (I think) compete with Ektalure. It also was a nice paper. And,of course, so was Kodak's Opal papers in different surfaces. While I never used any, we would see Dassonville papers (made in California) in our local Salons. I understand it was designed and made by a photographer for that use.......Regards!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ektalure could not be recreated on an industrial scale due to EPA rules about toxic chemicals, but it could be recreated in the home lab if you are willing to work with Cadmium and Mercury salts.

I might add that Opal and Medalist suffer from the same problem.

PE

 

[Nokton48]

I have 16x20 11x14 and 8x10 DW Ektalure I bought up as it was being discontinued. It has been in my deep freeze since purchase. Ektalure was always my paper of choice. The tapestry finish was perfect for exhibition printing. One of my favorite prints is a 16x20 framed Ektalure print, hanging in my parent's home.

 

[M Carter]

Ektalure could not be recreated on an industrial scale due to EPA rules about toxic chemicals, but it could be recreated in the home lab if you are willing to work with Cadmium and Mercury salts.

I might add that Opal and Medalist suffer from the same problem.

PE

Do you have any knowledge about the extent of those sorts of rules? Could it be made on a "boutique" scale, smaller runs with tight controls - or is any commercial use of those chemicals out of the (legal) question?

I'm really having trouble finding papers that compare to the old stuff - there are many very very nice papers out there, but I don't know of anything really glorious, that lith prints, and works well for things like Bromoil.

And I don't know that (a) I'd have the patience to make emulsion batches to do 16x20 or 20x24, and (b) that I could ever coat sheets that big to rival commercial papers for perfect coating.

I'm curious if someone like Foma or Ilford could dedicate a portion of a facility to making "boutique" runs of classic-style papers. Even if the cost were two or three times that of a current fiber paper, I wouldn't be surprised if batches would sell out and it could be profitable to a manufacturer. Our local camera shop that still sells film and paper reports a steady rise in sales and says that younger kids are a big part of this - maybe there's potential for growth at a fine art supply level? Again, in the "kickstarter age", it seems possible to at least see what the market could be like. But I have zero knowledge of what a current paper manufacturing environment is like.

 

[removed-user-1]

maybe there's potential for growth at a fine art supply level?

I've been making this argument to a friend of mine who is the supply manager for a local art supply store. So far, they have started carrying some light-sensitive materials for contact printing, but no film or paper... yet. I think this is a good direction for film to go in general, now that it's not the mainstream imaging method.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The supply train for both of these salts starts with mining, then proceeds to the manufacturing of the pure salts and then their use. The increase in use of Cd and Hg would increase pollution at each step by an amount that is not available to me. I do know that at the end of the pipeline, for every 10 g of Cd you could have used up to 100 g of Ag (rounding). This means your personal lab effluent would contain up to about 30 mg of Cd for every sheet of 8x10 (again rounding).

Add in Hg and a few other odds and ends such as Pb (Lead) and you are upping the environmental burden.

Is this the direction you want to go? If so, lobby for it! I for one don't want to touch it. I have the chemicals to do it right here, but have not opened that can of worms.

PE

 

[Lachlan Young]

The supply train for both of these salts starts with mining, then proceeds to the manufacturing of the pure salts and then their use. The increase in use of Cd and Hg would increase pollution at each step by an amount that is not available to me. I do know that at the end of the pipeline, for every 10 g of Cd you could have used up to 100 g of Ag (rounding). This means your personal lab effluent would contain up to about 30 mg of Cd for every sheet of 8x10 (again rounding).

Add in Hg and a few other odds and ends such as Pb (Lead) and you are upping the environmental burden.

Is this the direction you want to go? If so, lobby for it! I for one don't want to touch it. I have the chemicals to do it right here, but have not opened that can of worms.

PE

What do Hg & Cd salts offer that cannot be obtained by other means?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ektalure, Medalist and Kodabromide among others.

The tone and curve are paramount here. People talk about grade and mix it up with contrast, but there is more to grade (and contrast) than just the curve and no one here gets that. You don't get it until you make identical papers with formula variations that control toe, shoulder, mid scale and tone among just a few properties.

PE

 

[Lachlan Young]

Ektalure, Medalist and Kodabromide among others.

The tone and curve are paramount here. People talk about grade and mix it up with contrast, but there is more to grade (and contrast) than just the curve and no one here gets that. You don't get it until you make identical papers with formula variations that control toe, shoulder, mid scale and tone among just a few properties.

PE

If I'm reading this right, it's a bit like the use of IBU (International Bittering Units) in brewing which while it may provide a degree of like-for-like comparison between beers, fails to account for the type of hops used & when they were added within the brewing process, both of which will fundamentally alter the flavour profile.

For example, if I made 3 batches of beer, one hopped with Saaz, one Nelson Sauvin, & one Citra, I can vary how much & when during the boil I add them. I can further complicate things by adding different amounts of these hops to one brew in order to control the flavours & aromas I wish to emphasise. The resulting beers could all be IPAs of the same IBU, but will vary radically in their flavour - & that's before you start playing around with the malt bill...

Is this sort of heading in the right direction in terms of how to understand the ways that formulae can be adapted & modified?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, you are spot on so far.

You can add Cadmium two time or one time at two different points in making and get 3 results in toe, shoulder, contrast and image tone. Vary those and play with Mercury and Lead and you can make a whole line of subtly different papers with beautiful tone scales. Coat the emulsion on different papers and get even more variety.

It goes on and on. Like making good beer or wine. And you have to be a good printer to connect the variations in properties to the visual impact.

PE

 

[MattKing]

On a more generic level.

When Ektalure was current, it was one product in a list of many offered by Kodak. And those Kodak products competed in a relatively vibrant, as well as intensely competitive market.

Variations in image tone and surface texture and gloss were selling features, not technological problems.

If you were to produce something like Ektalure now, you would be dealing much more with the economics of niche markets, where volumes are likely to be low.

It seems to me that Ilford is currently dealing with such a market with their Multigrade Art 300 paper. They are asking customers to pay a premium for a paper with special qualities.

It may very well be that if people were willing to pay the same sort of premium for a paper with some of Ektalure's qualities, than that paper could be added to Ilford's roster.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Yes, you are spot on so far.

You can add Cadmium two time or one time at two different points in making and get 3 results in toe, shoulder, contrast and image tone. Vary those and play with Mercury and Lead and you can make a whole line of subtly different papers with beautiful tone scales. Coat the emulsion on different papers and get even more variety.

It goes on and on. Like making good beer or wine. And you have to be a good printer to connect the variations in properties to the visual impact.

PE

Given the toxicity of these compounds, are there any substitutes that are worth investigating?

 

[dwross]

If the characteristic most desired is a warm tone, cupric (copper) chloride does a lovely job. Texture and paper base color, of course, are wide open variables. There are a LOT of papers to coat on. By and large, though, the negative has as much to do with curve and contrast as the paper. The negative-making process that shall not be named here is hugely flexible, as is using contrast control masks with traditional negatives.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Given the toxicity of these compounds, are there any substitutes that are worth investigating?

Nothing comes close and some that are marginally suitable are out of our reach for a variety of reasons.

PE

 

[Lachlan Young]

Nothing comes close and some that are marginally suitable are out of our reach for a variety of reasons.

PE

Sadly guessed that would be the case - as it is, must admit to not being totally convinced of the supposed 'magic' of Ektalure - certainly not enough to risk a large chunk of money on a box - I'm quite happy with Fomatone MG, & if necessary, there are always internegs, masks, silver chloride papers etc that can be brought to bear when needed.

To try & return back to some sort of relevance to this thread, if you were given carte blanche to design a premium paper in the Art300 price category that could be made industrially, what would you go for?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Me? I guess I would go for Medalist. Maybe Opal.

PE

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Me? I guess I would go for Medalist.

It was always my favorite.

 

[M Carter]

I suppose if someone wanted to approach a manufacturer about boutique paper runs, some things to consider:

What paper (or paper qualities) are hard to get or no longer exist? I haven't tried Art 300 for instance, maybe I'd love it (And Adox 110 has a big following, but I still have stocks of Agfa 110). So maybe surveying people who actually sell their work, or people who want to print at that level.

I can tell you that lith printers would be pretty vocal about this. There are some legendary papers from the past. I communicate with Tim Rudman and Wolfgang Moersch regularly via the lith group (Wolfgang just posted that the recent demise of 123 will be devastating to his business). Are there enough lith printers to make this worthwhile? And many "legendary" lithable papers were also general-purpose classics.

When Foma changed their gelatin and ended up killing lith-ability last year, they took it very seriously and worked with Tim Rudman to re-formulate some of their stocks. And we have the regular presence of Ilford here - so there are some manufacturers that seem committed to helping the market.

It's really lith printing that sends me looking for expired papers - it's really my primary interest. That and bromoil.

So a double weight paper that's capable of infectious development and color shifts in lith, that has (fill in the properties here) that are harder to obtain in modern papers, and has killer relief for bromoil (OK, a bonus).

 

[dwross]

I am very interested in working with experienced lith and bromoil printers to test various handmade papers for suitability. I would prefer to work with folks interested in testing a number of different papers over a couple of years time period. If anyone is interested, I'd love to discuss it. editor@thelightfarm.com. I only check email once or twice a day, so my "partners" also need to be patient! This will be "open source" research, so expect at least one Light Farm article over the course of the collaboration.

 

[MrBrowning]

I am very interested in working with experienced lith and bromoil printers to test various handmade papers for suitability. I would prefer to work with folks interested in testing a number of different papers over a couple of years time period. If anyone is interested, I'd love to discuss it. editor@thelightfarm.com. I only check email once or twice a day, so my "partners" also need to be patient! This will be "open source" research, so expect at least one Light Farm article over the course of the collaboration.

That sounds like quite a fun job. Wish I was more experienced.

 

[dwross]

I think it sounds fun, too! I know nothing about either lith or bromoil, so developing paper and techniques will take someone with experience on the printing end -- but fingers crossed, someday there will be a set of excellent "beginner" instructions for making and using handmade paper with both.