efke 25, hardener needed?

karin bingel · Jul 16, 2006

I have just developed my first sheets of efke 25 and I have noticed that
the emulsion is somewhat "softer" than the emulsion of Delta 100 that I normally use. I shoot 13X18, develop in tubes (minimal danger of emulsion
beeing scratched) and I am wondering if a hardener would be adviceable.

Photo Engineer · Jul 16, 2006

YES!

Use either a pre hardener or a hardener fix.

PE

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 16, 2006

PE, I do not use either a pre-hardener or hardening fixer with the Efke sheet and roll films and have had no problems with emulsion damage. I routinely process Efke 8x10 sheet film. My standard developer is Pyrocat and it tans and hardens the emulsion during the development process (as will any staining and tanning developer).

It seems to me that if a hardener were to be used, it should be used before development (i.e. as a pre-hardener) and this means using formalin or an aldehyde based hardener with all their associated problems.

Better, in my opinion, to learn how to process film without damaging the emulsion.

Photo Engineer · Jul 16, 2006

Tom;

Of course, a hardening (tanning) developer solves this problem entirely, but not everyone uses a tanning developer.

Also, use of a hardener fix rather than a pre-hardener is preferred as you note above.

But, not everyone does tube or tank processing. Tray or hangar processing is subject to more scratching from soft emulsions and it is often desirable to pre-harden. As you note, the use of formalin makes that somewhat less desirable.

In the long run, softer films are subject to a number of process induced defects and the use of some sort of pre-hardener is indicated to improve overall quality. Some people see defects and some do not. Some people are concerned over the potential for damage as is what appears to be the case from Karin's OP.

I have read posts in which people complain that their film floated off the support during processing. In those cases, I suggest the same thing to them, but why do they have a problem and others say they do not with the same film? IDK. I can just generalize with a suggestion as I did above.

My final suggestion is to use what works for you. This decision, and the problem is not digital (yes or no) it is analog, or a series of maybe this or maybe that. It depends.

PE

srs5694 · Jul 16, 2006

FWIW, the conventional wisdom is that Efke films are softer than most others and can benefit more from a hardener than can most others. In fact, Freestyle puts this recommendation in their descriptions for at least some of the Efke films they sell (I haven't checked them all). Overall, it seems there are few potential downsides to using a hardener in the stop bath or fixer with Efke films, and at least the potential for some benefit, so you might as well use the hardener. If you don't want to use a hardener with other films, either buy two products or buy a product that lets you add the hardener separately and add it only when required.

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 16, 2006

srs5694 said:
FWIW, the conventional wisdom is that Efke films are softer than most others and can benefit more from a hardener than can most others. In fact, Freestyle puts this recommendation in their descriptions for at least some of the Efke films they sell (I haven't checked them all). Overall, it seems there are few potential downsides to using a hardener in the stop bath or fixer with Efke films, and at least the potential for some benefit, so you might as well use the hardener. If you don't want to use a hardener with other films, either buy two products or buy a product that lets you add the hardener separately and add it only when required.

Once you've damaged the emulsion, it's too late for a hardener to help...

The only really effective hardeners that I'm aware of that are for use prior to development are either formaldehyde based or are based on other aldehydes. As a consequence, there are safety and other issues associated with their use. There is a lot of documentation on this subject (by PE, Suzuki and others).

Photo Engineer · Jul 16, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
Once you've damaged the emulsion, it's too late for a hardener to help...

The only really effective hardeners that I'm aware of that are for use prior to development are either formaldehyde based or are based on other aldehydes. As a consequence, there are safety and other issues associated with their use. There is a lot of documentation on this subject (by PE, Suzuki and others).

Tom;

Alum pre hardeners will work just fine.

PE

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 16, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
Tom;

Alum pre hardeners will work just fine.

PE

Prior to development?

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 16, 2006

PE, I've not seen a published Alum based prehardener recipe (but I'd love to have one).

Photo Engineer · Jul 16, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
PE, I've not seen a published Alum based prehardener recipe (but I'd love to have one).

Tom;

I'm suffering from some computer problems and it may take a day or so to sort it out. I'm using IE 4.0 right now, and you would not believe how APUG looks in this version.

Anyhow, there are several alum hardeners including those using aluminum and chrome. The chrome ones are rather nasty, and they both require a good wash after use and before the developer, but they do work.

I'll try to look them up, in spite of the heatwave (which is causing computer problems) and get back ASAP.

PE

phfitz · Jul 16, 2006

Hi there,

Hpoefully it's a pre-hardener

Kodak Hardener F-1a

Water 125°F.............425cc
Sodium Sulfite............60.0g
Acetic Acid 28%.......190.0cc
Potassium Alum..........60.0g
Water to make .............1.0L

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 17, 2006

phfitz said:
Hi there,

Hpoefully it's a pre-hardener

Kodak Hardener F-1a

Water 125°F.............425cc
Sodium Sulfite............60.0g
Acetic Acid 28%.......190.0cc
Potassium Alum..........60.0g
Water to make .............1.0L

Hi phfitz: According to the Kodak Data Book on Formulas and Processing, Third Edition, 1946, page 49: Kodak Hardener F-1a is a stock solution which can be used as the hardener component in Kodak Fixing Bath F-1 For Papers.

juan · Jul 17, 2006

I use Efke film and have to develop at rather high temperatures for most of the year. I had a lot of emulsion problems. I solved them by using a tanning developer (Pyrocat HD, Pyrocat P, 510 Pyro), developing one sheet at a time with a brush, or developing in tubes - which keeps each negative separated from the others, and by keeping all of my solution temperatues from pre-wash to final wash within a few degrees of one another.

I developed Tri-X and other films by the shuffle method for 20+ years without a problem (admittedly in cooler climes) but I've been unable to successfully develop Efke films that way.

I agree with Tom that a pre-hardner is the only one that makes sense in this situation. I'm sure at least some of the scratches come in development. I'd be interested in seeing a formula.
juan

Gerald Koch · Jul 17, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
Anyhow, there are several alum hardeners including those using aluminum and chrome. The chrome ones are rather nasty, and they both require a good wash after use and before the developer, but they do work.

Chrome alum contains chromium (III) and not the very toxic chromium (VI) and is therefore safe to use. In fact, chromium (III) is a required trace mineral, I take it every day to help with sugar metabolism.

Ryuji · Jul 17, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
The only really effective hardeners that I'm aware of that are for use prior to development are either formaldehyde based or are based on other aldehydes. As a consequence, there are safety and other issues associated with their use. There is a lot of documentation on this subject (by PE, Suzuki and others).

Tom, you are right about this one. The best pre-hardener is a weak glutaraldehyde solution of pH around 8. This type of solution would require *very* good ventilation if it were to be used for dish processing. Even then, you are more likely having to adjust development time a bit.

Formaldehyde pre-hardener is not recommended. It can lightly fog the emulsion unless extra antifoggant is included in the pre-hardener. Kodak pre-hardener using formaldehyde uses 5-nitrobenzimidazole or something similar. Glut is a better hardener and also it won't fog even sensitive emulsions.

Alum hardeners are ok, but you'll have to use them at pH 4.5-6 range and you will have to wash it off VERY well before developing, because otherwise scum will form, and developer may be acidified.

I shoot a lot of b&w films myself, but I personally consider any of these additional steps not worth bothering with films made by companies other than Fujifilm, Kodak, Konica and Ilford.

Photo Engineer · Jul 17, 2006

Gerald Koch said:
Chrome alum contains chromium (III) and not the very toxic chromium (VI) and is therefore safe to use. In fact, chromium (III) is a required trace mineral, I take it every day to help with sugar metabolism.

Gerald, the chrome alum hardener is neutral whereas the aluminum prehardener is acidic.

Both must be washed out completely before development. The hardening is partly reversed in the developer in the case of aluminum, so you have to be careful.

I have used the formalin prehardener below for years with good results. Again, I don't suggest any aldehydes, but this works well and yields good hardness.

formalin 37%, 3 ml

Sodium Sulfate 50 - 100 g

Sodium Carbonate 25 - 50 g

Water to 1 L, pH to 10 with sodium hydroxide

Use for 1 min at 68 deg, then wash thoroughly. There should be little fog with papers, but if there is add 1 g/l of sodium bromide or other antifoggant.

PE

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 17, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
Gerald, the chrome alum hardener is neutral whereas the aluminum prehardener is acidic.

Both must be washed out completely before development. The hardening is partly reversed in the developer in the case of aluminum, so you have to be careful.

I have used the formalin prehardener below for years with good results. Again, I don't suggest any aldehydes, but this works well and yields good hardness.

formalin 37%, 3 ml

Sodium Sulfate 50 - 100 g

Sodium Carbonate 25 - 50 g

Water to 1 L, pH to 10 with sodium hydroxide

Use for 1 min at 68 deg, then wash thoroughly. There should be little fog with papers, but if there is add 1 g/l of sodium bromide or other antifoggant.

PE

PE, I've sucessfully mixed and used Kodak Prehardener SH-5 in the past to preharden E4 Ektachrome (1980-81) for high temperature processing in E6 chemistry. Your Formalin based hardener formula looks similar to SH-5.

The Kodak SH-5 formula does incorporate benzotriazole for film fog suppression.

For most of my Efke film processing, I will continue to follow this rule: IF IT AINT BROKE DON'T FIX IT!

Thus, No pre or post hardener when I am developing Efke films with tanning developers.

I may try using pre hardener on some occasions (if I encounter problems with emulsion damage - and so far - I have not) when I am developing Efke films with non-staining and tanning developers.

Gerald Koch · Jul 17, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
the chrome alum hardener is neutral whereas the aluminum prehardener is acidic.

A 5% solution of chrome alum has a pH of 3.2 whereas it takes a 10% solution of alum to match this pH. So chrome alum is actually more acidic in its reaction than common alum.

BTW, my only reason for mentioning chrome alum at all was to inform people that it was safe to use and did not contain a harmful form of chromium.

Photo Engineer · Jul 17, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
PE, I've sucessfully mixed and used Kodak Prehardener SH-5 in the past to preharden E4 Ektachrome (1980-81) for high temperature processing in E6 chemistry. Your Formalin based hardener formula looks similar to SH-5.

The Kodak SH-5 formula does incorporate benzotriazole for film fog suppression.

For most of my Efke film processing, I will continue to follow this rule: IF IT AINT BROKE DON'T FIX IT!

Thus, No pre or post hardener when I am developing Efke films with tanning developers.

I may try using pre hardener on some occasions (if I encounter problems with emulsion damage - and so far - I have not) when I am developing Efke films with non-staining and tanning developers.

Tom;

I'm still looking for a good non-aldehyde prehardener, but cannot find one.

We did use the above formula without antifoggant for papers and expecially unhardened experiments or in high temperature processes. In color processes for films, there was a neutralizer bath to remove the excess aldehyde before the wash and first developer. I have run a chrome alum hardener before the E3 (or E2 - I have forgotten) first developer. It was followed by a long wash and worked just fine. In fact, some of my posted color transparencies were run through such a process.

Aldehydes react with couplers in color films and also could react with some developing agents to some extent IIRC. You have to either neutralize them or wash the photographic material very well before going into the developer. Aldehydes can also fog emulsions. This is why they were so hard to control as hardeners in coatings.

PE

efke 25, hardener needed?

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