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Edwal 10 -- formula, anyone?

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Well, my first few photos with APX 100 turned out well -- I developed in fresh Edwal 10, 9 minutes, agitate every 30 sec, 70.5 degrees. It did seem to hold values well, not blowing out some strong highlights, with a range of midtones different from my usual developer, if with a bit more grain. I think I'd like to use this as a replenished developer, which I've found has some attributes -- especially given its longevity.

Picture taken with a Konica IIIa -- nice lens.
 

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Just to continue to report: I've also developed some APX-100 in Edwal 10 as a stand developer. 425 ml solution at 70 degrees F, initial agitation 20 secs, agitate at the 25 minute mark, pour out at the one hour mark and then normal processing to conclusion. Nice tonality, good sharpness -- I like it!
 
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Just to continue to report: I've also developed some APX-100 in Edwal 10 as a stand developer. 425 ml solution at 70 degrees F, initial agitation 20 secs, agitate at the 25 minute mark, pour out at the one hour mark and then normal processing to conclusion. Nice tonality, good sharpness -- I like it!

Did you use it straight or diluted, please?
 
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Straight, as mixed from the formula. I mixed up a liter and had previously run about half a roll of film through it, so this was only the second time I'd used the developer. I'm not using a replenishment regime, so I figure I'll get about five rolls out of this liter and then toss (extending dev times by 5% over previous roll for rolls 3, 4, 5). I do think this could be a very good developer for replenishment.

As for my letting the film stand for one hour: the next time, I think I'd cut back to 45 minutes ONLY because the film base fog at one hour is just a little bit higher than when I ran my first roll with normal development technique. So I'm speculating that the one hour time brought up the base fog that extra bit, and that cutting back to 45 minutes might bring it down a little.
 

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Message #21 had some guidelines (look at what you do for D-76), though you'll probably have to play with it a bit yourself. My copy of "Modern Developing Methods for Prints and Fine Grain Negatives" (Edwal / Lowe) doesn't mention replenishing for Edwal 10.
 

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Message #21 had some guidelines (look at what you do for D-76), though you'll probably have to play with it a bit yourself. My copy of "Modern Developing Methods for Prints and Fine Grain Negatives" (Edwal / Lowe) doesn't mention replenishing for Edwal 10.

Beside #21 I also found a post on RangeFinderForum (https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2000593&postcount=18) that gives a replenishment regime albeit the fomule listed seems to be incorrect. Perhaps just a typo?

The online edition of "Modern Developing Methods for Prints and Fine Grain Negatives" (https://archive.org/details/ModernDevelopingMethods) does not mention replenishment either or I must have overlooked it.

Seems like it is not a vey well documented developer. Looking forward to give it a try.
 

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So @MrclSchprs pointed out in another thread that the formula listed here for Edwal 10 does not match at least the formula from the 1947 edition of Edwal's Modern Developing Methods that I had posted on that thread.

Here: https://ia800202.us.archive.org/7/items/ModernDevelopingMethods/Edwal - Modern developing methods (1947).pdf

Page 29, the formula for Edwal 10 given is (original chemical names in quotes):
  • Water — 900cc
  • Metol "Elon" — 5g
  • Sodium sulphite "Fine Grain Sulphite" — 100g
  • Glycin "Monazol" — 5g
  • Borax — 10g
  • Water to 1L
Perhaps this changed at some point. But as of that edition of the book this is the published formula.
 

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I ran across a note on the site of a photographer I’ve never heard of, who says to dilute this formula 1:10 for one shot use. Has anyone seen anything about using Edwal 10 one shot?
 

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Reviving a 12 year old thread as I am looking for info on how to use Edwal 10 as a replenished developer. Anyone any info?
Recently I gathered all the information about Edwal 10 that I could find. After that I performed tests with carefully replenished Edwal 10. My experience was that Edwal 10 offers no advantages for me.
 

Lachlan Young

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Recently I gathered all the information about Edwal 10 that I could find. After that I performed tests with carefully replenished Edwal 10. My experience was that Edwal 10 offers no advantages for me.

In many ways, this shouldn't be surprising - you've essentially repeated the outcomes that Henn & Crabtree of Kodak Research Labs found when they investigated various 'fine grain' developers like Lowe's concoctions (and others) in the 1940s & found that D-23 was about as effective as any of them (at the pH's they operated at), D-25 offered measurably finer granularity, and that Microdol offered finer granularity & faster development times - and that all 3 didn't need some of the nastier chemistry like PPD that some recipes (though not Edwal 10) used.
 

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In many ways, this shouldn't be surprising - you've essentially repeated the outcomes that Henn & Crabtree of Kodak Research Labs found when they investigated various 'fine grain' developers like Lowe's concoctions (and others) in the 1940s & found that D-23 was about as effective as any of them (at the pH's they operated at), D-25 offered measurably finer granularity, and that Microdol offered finer granularity & faster development times - and that all 3 didn't need some of the nastier chemistry like PPD that some recipes (though not Edwal 10) used.
This is repeated over and over in books but in one test I did the chemicals were not very good at chemistry and PPD showed finer grain:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/halcyon-p-phenylenediamine-developer-test.173080/
 

removedacct3

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In many ways, this shouldn't be surprising - you've essentially repeated the outcomes that Henn & Crabtree of Kodak Research Labs found when they investigated various 'fine grain' developers like Lowe's concoctions (and others) in the 1940s & found that D-23 was about as effective as any of them (at the pH's they operated at) ...

Kodak employees, or Kodak affiliated researchers, concluding that Kodak products are as good as the ones from the competition ... did you really expect something else?

Nevertheless, do you happen to know when they conducted their research? The 1947 recipe of Edwal 10 looks a lot like D-23 albeit with less metol than the version that is listed on this site and various other forums.
 

Lachlan Young

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Kodak employees, or Kodak affiliated researchers, concluding that Kodak products are as good as the ones from the competition ... did you really expect something else?

Nevertheless, do you happen to know when they conducted their research? The 1947 recipe of Edwal 10 looks a lot like D-23 albeit with less metol than the version that is listed on this site and various other forums.

Mid-1940s - and they're pretty explicit that the aim was to match a PPD-sulfite developer while reducing the problem side effects (toxicity - they keep emphasising how dangerous PPD is - in 1945!, speed loss, lack of sharpness). They got there initially via DK-20 (which caused dichroic stain on some emulsions), then D-25 - and adding more and more bisulfite to slow it down further to allow the sulphite more time to act on the grain. With modern anti-dichroic stain agents now incorporated in emulsions, KSCN containing developers are starting to reappear (see Adox, Spur) possibly because there is some evidence that their solvency may allow better access to the iodide in the emulsions.

It is possible to make a CD-4 developer (because no one should be messing around with unsubstituted PPD in a home lab) that actually performs well in terms of speed and sharpness, but it requires a lot more to it than adding an extra developing agent (which may be doing most of the work) and hoping.

The reality is that Kodak etc wouldn't spend the time & effort to research and take a product to market unless some pretty ruthless tests showed it was provably better - this is where Kodak and others pulled ahead of the amateurish developer-tasters, who didn't have electron microscopes and microdensitometers, let alone emulsion research divisions to investigate the grain/ speed/ sharpness relationship. That Ilford, with a significant basic science research group at the time, ended up essentially making the same product as Microdol/ Microdol-X in the form of Perceptol, says far more about how accurate Kodak's pinpointing of the useful mechanism was. It's terribly easy to want to make folk heros out of some kind of supposedly heroic amateur chemists slowly poisoning themselves with PPD in their garden sheds rather than teams of white-coated researchers in large corporate entities coming up with elegantly simple and much less toxic solutions - especially because it doesn't fit easily with some of the popular (and often fairly well founded) narratives about mid-20th century corporate behaviour with regards to chemicals and their effects on the end user and the environment. Ironically, the use of PPD in hair dye (and other dyes) until very recently is actually a pretty clear illustration of that behaviour.

The other problem with people playing around with many developers today is that the 'tests' they do seem to lack even the most basic sensitometric controls & comparisons - and often rely on consumer grade scanners with questionable MTF and noise characteristics, which they then proceed to sharpen the life out of.
 
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If you are looking for nice tonality then Edwal 10 is a good developer. Edwal 12 is better from a "technical" standpoint, but making images isn't about science, unless you want it to be. TriX in Edwal 12 looks like PlusX for example.

Unfortunately I don't remember offhand the replenishment rate of Edwal 10. I have 3 oz./film written in notes but I don't remember if I used that or not. It has been about five years since I've used it. I'd recommend giving it a go. The only downside to it is the Glycin. It is kind of expensive and doesn't last long out of solution (freezing it helps), but if you use it replenished it isn't too bad. I gave up on Edwal 12 and 20 (which I never got to try) because of the PPD. I am not worried about the toxicity since I'm careful, but it was impossible to get for a few years.

Here is a jpg I found somewhere that contains instructions for Edwal 12 that will give you an idea on replenishment. Interestingly enough, the instructions I have for Edwal 20 are for 2oz instead of 3 oz.

Edwal 12 instructions.jpg
 
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effort to research and take a product to market unless some pretty ruthless tests showed it was provably better - this is where Kodak and others pulled ahead of the amateurish developer-tasters, who didn't have electron microscopes and microdensitometers, let alone emulsion research divisions to investigate the grain/ speed/ sharpness relationship. That Ilford, with a significant basic science research group at the time, ended up essentially making the same product as Microdol/ Microdol-X in the form of Perceptol, says far more about how accurate Kodak's pinpointing of the useful mechanism was.

Interestingly, PE who was a Kodak researcher himself was of the following opinion.

Unfortunately, a good developer should not lose speed to gain its desired result of finer grain or better sharpness. One can only hope that the final developer optimzes Grain, Sharpness and Speed to the max possible. With PPDs this could be quite rewarding to the adventuresome. This is especially true of their use in B&W processing.

Unfortunately, much of the real data on PPDs is not in any text. This includes Mees, Mees and James and Haist among others.
 

Alan Johnson

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The reality is that Kodak etc wouldn't spend the time & effort to research and take a product to market unless some pretty ruthless tests showed it was provably better - this is where Kodak and others pulled ahead of the amateurish developer-tasters, who didn't have electron microscopes and microdensitometers, let alone emulsion research divisions to investigate the grain/ speed/ sharpness relationship. That Ilford, with a significant basic science research group at the time, ended up essentially making the same product as Microdol/ Microdol-X in the form of Perceptol, says far more about how accurate Kodak's pinpointing of the useful mechanism was. It's terribly easy to want to make folk heros out of some kind of supposedly heroic amateur chemists slowly poisoning themselves with PPD in their garden sheds rather than teams of white-coated researchers in large corporate entities coming up with elegantly simple and much less toxic solutions - especially because it doesn't fit easily with some of the popular (and often fairly well founded) narratives about mid-20th century corporate behaviour with regards to chemicals and their effects on the end user and the environment. Ironically, the use of PPD in hair dye (and other dyes) until very recently is actually a pretty clear illustration of that behaviour.

The other problem with people playing around with many developers today is that the 'tests' they do seem to lack even the most basic sensitometric controls & comparisons - and often rely on consumer grade scanners with questionable MTF and noise characteristics, which they then proceed to sharpen the life out of.
Are you familiar with the expression "Cancel Culture"?
Are only those with million dollar facilities to be allowed to post?
I agree anyone looking at PPD should familiarise themselves with its potential to cause severe allergic reactions in some cases and take appropriate precautions.
 

Lachlan Young

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Interestingly, PE who was a Kodak researcher himself was of the following opinion.

That's what I was hinting at. Essentially, the inherencies of the C-41 process allow for a very good balance of very fine, sharp grain and full emulsion speed - and that's the hint - what does C-41 film have that BW film doesn't, and how can you translate that reaction without introducing other problems? I'll leave it up to those who've explored this further to disclose if they wish.
 

removedacct3

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If you are looking for nice tonality then Edwal 10 is a good developer.
....
Unfortunately I don't remember offhand the replenishment rate of Edwal 10. I have 3 oz./film written in notes but I don't remember if I used that or not. It has been about five years since I've used it. I'd recommend giving it a go.

Patrick Robert, do you remember which version of Edwal 10 you used at the time? The original formula, the formula listed in 'Modern Developing Techniques' by Edwal differs from the formula that floats around on this site. For the sake of completeness and ease of referencing I will list them both.

Photrio’s version
distilled water _________ 750ml
Metol ___________________ 5g
Sodium Sulfite___________ 70g
Glycin __________________ 15g
Borax ___________________ 10g
distilled water to make _ 1000ml

official Edwal 1947 version
distilled water _________ 900ml
Metol ___________________ 5g
Sodium Sulfite __________ 100g
Glycin __________________ 5g
Borax ___________________ 10g
distilled water to make _ 1000ml
 
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Patrick Robert, do you remember which version of Edwal 10 you used at the time? The original formula, the formula listed in 'Modern Developing Techniques' by Edwal differs from the formula that floats around on this site. For the sake of completeness and ease of referencing I will list them both.

Photrio’s version
distilled water _________ 750ml
Metol ___________________ 5g
Sodium Sulfite___________ 70g
Glycin __________________ 15g
Borax ___________________ 10g
distilled water to make _ 1000ml

official Edwal 1947 version
distilled water _________ 900ml
Metol ___________________ 5g
Sodium Sulfite __________ 100g
Glycin __________________ 5g
Borax ___________________ 10g
distilled water to make _ 1000ml


I used the Photrio version you have above according to my notes. I haven't tried the other version. Keep in mind that films are a lot different than they were 70 years ago. Back then films were thick emulsion and grainy. The max sulfite and less Glycin would have been to mitigate the grain. My guess anyway. As films evolved grain became less of an issue. You could try the old version. I suspect the grain would be a little less. I don't think it would matter that much really. Grain is kind of baked in film these days. Hard to get it to change much at all.

Hope that helps.
 

removedacct3

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Hope that helps.

Thank you!

Did you ever experienced a sudden drop in activity? I did and I never found out what the cause of that was. I suspected it was in the formula I'm using (I mixed the Photrio's version) or that is was due to the grayish Metol I used. I bought fresh Metol from a reputable source. It has the off-white color, so that's good. I will mix a fresh batch of Edwal 10 and see how it keeps, or does not keep, its activity.
 
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Thank you!

Did you ever experienced a sudden drop in activity? I did and I never found out what the cause of that was. I suspected it was in the formula I'm using (I mixed the Photrio's version) or that is was due to the grayish Metol I used. I bought fresh Metol from a reputable source. It has the off-white color, so that's good. I will mix a fresh batch of Edwal 10 and see how it keeps, or does not keep, its activity.

From what I remember it lasted a long time for me. Been years since I used it though.
 
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