edge effect

rmolson · Jun 6, 2007

When I gave up my large format equipment ( Im too old and it was getting too heavy) and went back to medium format I found that what served me well a longtime ago isnt the same. I used FP-4 in D-76 1:1 with great success for years, using an old Yashica TRL D. You cant beat some of those old triplets. Now I am using a Bronica SQA mounted on a tripod and with mirror up, the film is FP-4 plus and Claytons F-76 supposedly D76 in concentrate I have been using it in the1:9 dilution which would be the same as full strength D-76, get great shadow detail, but something is missing. I cant describe it ,its one of those things you feel. Before I start spending time testing to oblivion a few simple questions come to mind.
One is the edge effect of diluted developers. At what point is the effect even noticeable? Would it be in a contact print, a 2x or 3x enlargement, or only when an 8 x or larger enlargement is made?

fhovie · Jun 6, 2007

FP4+ does not give me the edge effects that TRI-X gives me. I do semi stand processing - At 1 hour, FP4 will almost have the accutance that TRI-X gives in 30 minutes. You are using a high sulfite developer on a fine grain film. In order to start seeing accutance, you need to get the equivalent of D-76 1:3 and use less agitation. XTOL 1:3 or PC-TEA will look sharper as well. My fav is Pyrocat-P. I am not satisfied unless I get some very faint Mackie lines.

gainer · Jun 6, 2007

No matter what they call it, you can't get 900 grams of sulfite into a liter so that when you dilute it 1 + 9 you get the sulfite content of D 76. That doesn't mean its not a good developer, just that it's not equivalent to D-76 in every respect.

FP4 is now FP4+. I'm not sure what the + means, but it is different except in ISO. Well, I guess that's different as well because ISO specs are different from ASA.

I may be older than you. All the French people will (unknowingly) help me celebrate my 80th birthday July 14. I think all emulsions were thicker. I know developing times in D-76 were longer. I remember when thin emulsions were first touted, but I can't remember the name of the film.

Perhaps the easiest way to get the edge effects you crave is reduced agitation with a diluted developer. It is not, I think, the dilution that gives the edge effect, but dilution helps prevent bromide drag while the local characteristics of the developer are changing. These local changes in bromide content and other products of development also cause local changes in specific gravity and, of course, the heavier and lighter parts tend to separate. This is not the characteristic of reduced agitation we want. It might be that if you diluted the Clayton stuff with 20 or even 40 parts of water and developed for, say, 30 minutes with vigorous agitation for 5 seconds at 0, 10 and 20 minutes, you would see the effect you want.

titrisol · Jun 6, 2007

Clayton F76 is not even close to D76, is quite a different animal

I would give it a shot in the 1+14 dilution with agitation only 1/minute

dancqu · Jun 6, 2007

rmolson said:
Claytons F-76 supposedly D76 in concentrate
I have been using it in the1:9 dilution which
would be the same as full strength D-76, ...

Good thing Mr. Gainer caught that. No way 900 grams.
The D-76 called for formula amount is 100 grams per liter.

There is something odd about the solubility of sodium sulfite.
IIRC about 125 grams or so are readily soluble but the limiting
amount is over 200. Perhaps a very slow hydrolysis at work?
The term I recall is for "field" use, around 125 grams.

At a 1:1 D-76 dilution equivalent Clayton's sulfite level will
run about 6 grams per liter, 12 Tops. A one shot for sure
I'd think. Wonder what makes it go? Or is it SLOW? Dan

Steve Sherman · Jun 6, 2007

A word of caution, sulfite base developers promote silver migration, especially as development times are extended. Silver migration is the exact opposite of edge effects. Silver from adjacent tonalities tends to join together reducing the contrast between different tones and virtually eliminating any chance of the mackie line phenomenon.

In general pyro based developers have higher accutance than developers containing sulfite. Pyro based developers tend to harden the emulsion in the beginning minutes of development, which actually increases the perception of edge effects.

I used exclusively Pyrocat and FP4, tend to photograph in extremes of contrast, either not enough or far too much. That combination along with Semi-Stand or Minimal Agitation development allows me to control virtually any lighting situation youll ever encounter.

gainer · Jun 6, 2007

The sulfite in D-76 is usually considered to serve two purposes: activate the metol and the hydroquinone, and minimize grain. Make that three: the pH depends somewhat on sulfite. I think sharpness could be improved by reducing the sulfite to 10 grams per liter, maybe even 6, and increasing the borax, if necessary, to maintain the pH at about 9. Activity would be maintained, at least for one-shot use, by the sulfite which is in sufficient quantity to make the hydroquinone monosulfonate. Of course, I could be wrong. There's a first time for everything. (If you need a funny face icon for that one, you're not as bright as I thought you were.)

nworth · Jun 7, 2007

Interestingly, the data sheet that came with FP-4 sheet film a couple of years ago recommended ID-11 (or D-76) undiluted for maximum quality and ID-11 diluted 1+1 for maximum sharpness. Undiluted D-76 does a lot of physical development - silver dissolved in the developer is plated back onto the negative, mostly onto the developed silver. It is not extreme, but it is quite significant. A bottle of used, undiluted D-76 develops a nice thin coat of silver on its surface. Some developers, like FG-7, used to recommend adding sulfite for certain uses and certain films, mostly to obtain finer grain. It should be noted that sulfite not only affects the amount of grain, but (perhaps more significantly) its shape. High sulfite developers without much restrainer produce fine silver filaments instead of globs of silver.

Alan Johnson · Jun 7, 2007

It's not known if F-76 might contain potassium sulfite solubility 655g/L rather than sodium sulfite solubility 220g/L. F-76 may be somewhat similar to DDX:
http://www.silvergrain.org/wiki/DD-X
If prepared to change developer more edge effect could probably be obtained by stand developing in Rodinal 1:200 circa 90min 68F or Pyrocat HD 1:1:200 circa 45-60 min 68F.

dancqu · Jun 7, 2007

gainer said:
I think sharpness could be improved by reducing
the sulfite to 10 grams per liter, maybe even 6, ...

Two grams will do. A roll of 120 I put through a fraction of a
formula Ansco 120 print developer was thoroughly developed.
Working strength formula is 0.66, 2, 2, grams metol, sulfite,
carbonate. Ansco 120 print developer is of a classic type;
carbonated metol, sulfite preserved. Film developers of
the same type are Beutler's, FX-1, and Mason's.

Half the above working strength liter was used on
one 120 roll. Should be good for sharp grain with fast
films. A compensating developer for slow films. The
extreme dilution of the developer reminds one of
Rodinal at 1:100, maybe 1:200. Dan

gainer · Jun 8, 2007

Minimum sulfite.

And PC-TEA, of course, has no sulfite. The working solution may have less than 2 grams of ascorbic acid, 1/25 gram of phenidone and somewhat less than 20 ml of TEA per liter.

I tested the idea that the important qualities of D-76 could be obtained with only 10 grams of sodium sulfite per liter. The formula I used is:

Metol.................2 g
Hydroquinone..........5 g
Sodium sulfite........10 g
sodium metaborate.....3.3 g
To make 1 liter.

The metaborate turns the sulfuric acid on the Metol to sodium sulfste and leaves enough borax to make the pH about 9. The activity is such that HP5+ developed to normal contrast in 8 minutes at 68 F. That, IIRC, is about what full strength D-76 is.
I can't find the grain with my unclothed eye at 10X enlargement. I can't prove any of this over the net because you will see pixels before you see grain, but the formula is simple enough to mix for anyone who does this sort of thing routinely. Perhaps a few who like to experiment could repeat what I did.
If you have sodium hydroxide and borax but no metaborate, you can make a satisfactory 10% solution with 14.5 grams of sodium hydroxide plus 69 grams of borax in water to make 1 liter. 33 ml of this solution will be equivalent to 0.48 grams of sodium hydroxide and 2.3 grams of borax.
The attached photo, if printed to 6x0 inches, is a fraction of a 20x24 print from 35 mm.

gainer · Jun 8, 2007

The attached photo was on FP4+ and "sulfste" should have read "sulfate".

dancqu · Jun 8, 2007

gainer said:
And PC-TEA, of course, has no sulfite. The working
solution may have less than 2 grams of ascorbic acid,
1/25 gram of phenidone and somewhat less than 20 ml
of TEA per liter.kfrom 35 mm.

I see lots of PC this or that. What of MC and this or that?
This for MC might be a carbonate alone or, to lower the ph,
combined with bicarbonate. A sulfite free combination which
does not need metaborate or TEA. Dan

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 9, 2007

dancqu said:
I see lots of PC this or that. What of MC and this or that?
This for MC might be a carbonate alone or, to lower the ph,
combined with bicarbonate. A sulfite free combination which
does not need metaborate or TEA. Dan

Dan, there is Pyrocat-MC (Metol/Catechcol plus Ascorbic Acid) which is sulfite free and uses Sodium Carbonate in the B stock solurion as the alkali/accelerator.

The Pyrocat-MC A solution is mixed in Propylene Gycol and Pat Gainer included a little TEA and water in the mixing procedure to make the Metol Base plus Ascorbate that is soluble in Propylene Glycol.

Pyrocat-MC stock A lasts a very long time on the shelf with no change. Pyrocat-MC working developer produces high acutance and excellent microtonality.

gainer · Jun 9, 2007

The first time I played with Metol-C was in 1994 and published in Darkroom and Creative Camera Trchniques which is now Photo Techniques. A bit of Metol, a couple of grams of ascorbic acid and a few grams of sodium carbonate in a liter of water makes a good developer.

You can make a good water-mixed developer with a little Phenidone, some ascorbic acid, some baking soda and some borax. You won't even need a balance to weigh these things. All but the Phenidone can be had at most supermarkets. It can be reused for at least 8 rolls per liter and will store for quite a while.

gainer · Jun 9, 2007

Mix 1/2 teaspoon of Phenidone with a little isopropyl alcohol to make it easier to dissolve in water. Mix a couple of ounces of water, 2 teaspoons of ascorbic acid powder and 1 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate and stir til the effervescence subsides. Warm it slightly to get more CO2 out. Add this mixture, the Phenidone, two teaspoons of borax and enough cold water to make 1 liter. Use it full strength or diluted as you would use D-76. At full strength it can be reused for at least 8 36 exp. or 8x10 films. All the teaspoon measures are levelled standard cooking measuring spoons.

edge effect

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency