Ed Lowe on Edwal 12, etc.

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
In the "Chemistry Recipes Area" I've posted an extract, which talks about Edwal 12 developer, from Lowe's wonderful 1939 text, "Developers, Fine Grain and Otherwise".

This is a great source for anybody intrigued with PPD developers in general, and 777 in particular ... not to mention Edwal 12. Lowe can teach us a thing or two, 66 years on. And he was well respected by St. Ansel.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

cheers
 

Oldtimer Jay

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
Messages
60
Format
Multi Format
Hi All,

I second D F's opinion . I have brewed up some Edwal 12 and it is a nice, fairly fine grain developer which provides a beautiful range of tones with medium speed films on subjects with an average brightness range. It gives negatives somewhat similar to PMK. If you want to try it the formula is in The Film Developing Cook Book .

Enjoy,

Jay L.
 

Tom Hoskinson

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
3,867
Location
Southern Cal
Format
Multi Format

Thanks for posting this, df!

Regarding 777, the current manufacturer of this developer states that it does not contain Glycin.

Morris Germain A.R.P.S. published (in 1940) a formula in his DARKROOM HANDBOOK AND FORMULARY called Fine Grain Developer. Germain described it as "the author's own finegrain formula." Germain was well acquainted with Lowe.

Germain's Fine Grain Developer

Distilled warm water (125 deg. F)..............................665 cc
Metol....................................................................7.0 grams
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous).......................................70.0 grams
Paraphenyline Diamine (base).....................................7.0 grams
Glycin....................................................................7.0 grams
Distilled water, cold, to make....................................1000 cc
 

Paul Howell

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
9,800
Location
Scottsdale Az
Format
Multi Format
I have been experimenting with both 777 and Edwal 12, I bought 777 from the Frugal Photographer who sources from Bluegrass, and I get an Edwal 12 clon from the Photographers Formulary. My intent was to find a single developer to replace the 4 or 5 that I currently use. So far I think I like Edwal 12 a little better that 777, although 777 has great shadow and tones, for my taste a little flat. I may wind up using Edwal for sitiutations where the lighting is flat and 777 for high contrast sitiutations. Of all the films I have tired, Lucky 120 100, HP5 and PF4 work really well, I will test JC Pro 100 4X5 next.
 

Tom Hoskinson

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
3,867
Location
Southern Cal
Format
Multi Format
Paul, check my post in APUG Chemical Recipes on Germain's Fine Grain Developer and DF Cardwell's reply to the post. If you mix your own chemistry, you can fine tune either Lowe's Edwal 12 or Germain's Fine Grain Developer (777) for a particular film and/or look by changing the chemical proportions.
 

Paul Howell

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
9,800
Location
Scottsdale Az
Format
Multi Format
I reviwed the article by Ed Lowe, Edwal 12 has methol Edwal 20 has gradol, what is gradol and how is it different from methol?
 
OP
OP

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
Gradol is a form of paraminophenol hydrochloride, similar to, but different from, Rodinal.

I wouldn't suggest messing around with Edwal 20.

.
 

Paul Howell

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
9,800
Location
Scottsdale Az
Format
Multi Format
thanks, I have no intention of making Edwal 20, I last mixed chemistry in college in 60's, just wondering.
 
OP
OP

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format

Edwal 12 is extremely acute, and compares favorably to PMK.

We tend to think of 'fine grain' as soft and mushy; that has not been the case forever. The nature of a fine grained developer, in Lowe's time, was to produce not COARSE grain... but fine grain. It is not solvent in any way, but very well defined and regular.

.
 
OP
OP

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
Dr. Lowe indicates 3 different ways to use Edwal 12 developer, and what may be expected in each case. Let me refer you back to him. Primary sources are more reliable than batting back and forth. Especially when the source is expert, and at least one of the batters, me, is not expert at all.

If you are interested, you might find a copy of his book: he has several pages of photomicrographs which illustrate his comparisons.

You might make up a batch of Ed 12 and see what it does.

The most interesting results I have found using the developer, which of course may be of no interest to anybody BUT myself, have been to use seasoned Edwal 12 (with reduced glycin) as a semi-standing developer. Troop quotes Crawley in The Film Developing Cookbook ( Chapter 7, Super-Fine Grain Developers: 'Modern PPD developers' ); I was intrigued by Crawley's insights, and pleased by the results.

Photochemistry, especially at the low level where I try to practise it, defies a priori thinking. Especially in the case of PPD/Glycin developers, trying to predict "what will happen" is generally futile. Thankfully, empirical knowledge is easy to attain, and infinitely more reliable than any attempt at prognostication.

If you investigate this, I would be pleased if you shared your results.


.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,965
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format
df cardwell said:
The most interesting results I have found using the developer, which of course may be of no interest to anybody BUT myself, have been to use seasoned Edwal 12 (with reduced glycin) as a semi-standing developer.
Click to expand...

How do you go about doing this? I am interested in trying out some Edwal 12 and the less wasteful I am of expensive chemicals the better!

All help much appreciated

Lachlan
 

Gerald Koch

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
1,662
Format
Multi Format
Gradol is the hemisulfate salt of p-aminophenol rather than the more common hydrochloride. You can substitute an equal amount of the hydrochloride salt for the Gradol.
 

Gerald Koch

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
1,662
Format
Multi Format
I would strongly caution anyone considering making or using any developer containing either of the phenylenediamines as they are strong sensitizers. Unless you have experienced the allergic effects of these chemicals, as I have, you cannot appreciate the misery that they can cause. Modern emulsions are sufficently fine grain so that they have no place in today's photography.
 

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,965
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format
If you treat the chemicals with the respect they deserve I don't see any problem in using them.

Lachlan
 

Gerald Koch

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
1,662
Format
Multi Format
Sorry to be so forceful, but once you have experienced the intense itching, the blisters the size of peas, the cross sensitization to all the color developing agents, you may agree that they are not worth it no matter how fine the images. They give new meaning to the expression "sacrificing for one's art". You may be lucky and never suffer but most people eventually do. You will find as many articles in the 30's and 40's publications about their nasty effects as you will find articles on using them. All it takes are microscopic amounts and your immune system will do the rest.
 

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,965
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format

OK, what would you suggest as an effective alternative to Edwal 12 (not Rodinal)?

Lachlan
 

Gerald Koch

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
1,662
Format
Multi Format
Lachlan Young said:
OK, what would you suggest as an effective alternative to Edwal 12 (not Rodinal)?
Lachlan
Click to expand...
You might try Calbe A49 which substitutes one of the color developing agents CD-2 for the paraphenylenediamine. The color developing agents are subsituted ppd's and said to produce fewer problems (Although it didn't help me). You could try Kodak D-25 which claims to produce as fine grain as the ppd developers.
 

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,965
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format
I was looking for something which also contained glycin - just to give that extra bit of a 'glow' - I will however try A49 which does look interesting and got a very favourable write-up in 'Black and White Photography'.

Thanks for the help,

Lachlan
 

Gerald Koch

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
1,662
Format
Multi Format
You might also try Emofin which is said to produce good shadow detail. This also contains CD-2 rather than ppd.
 
OP
OP

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
Lachlan

You might try Edwal 10:

Metol 5
Sulfite, anh 100
Borax 10
Glycin 5

Yep, that's right, it's Dr. Lowe's 1930's take on D-76. Except that Metol & Glycin are additive not super-additive, metol working on the shadows, glycin on the highlights.

But it will have more zip than D76 / ID-11

I'd dilute it 1:3, and expect something different from D76 ... but very interesting.

Try the published times for D76 as a starting point, and agitate the film only 5 seconds every 5th minute. Use the box speed of the film, and use Zone V density to determine your development time. What the shadows and highlights do will be up to the time traveling nature of the developer. I think FP4 would be wonderful with this.

You may need to use a softer developer than Dektol to manage the long run of highlights, but it will probably please you.

If you like it, you can buy me a pint at dougie macleans....

don
 

Paul Howell

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
9,800
Location
Scottsdale Az
Format
Multi Format
I have been using an Edwal 12 clone from PF and D 777 for the past 6 months without any issues at all. I use gloves, apron, safety glasses, my darkroom is well ventilated. Both will stain.

Paul
 

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,965
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format
Do you know of any good Glycin type developers for film (I know about Ansco 130 for paper)?

Lachlan
 

Lachlan Young

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
4,965
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format

I posted that formula in the Chemistry Recipes section yesterday, but thanks for all the extra info about the developer. Also, what is the correct amount of Glycin as one source lists it as being 5g but two others as being 15g?

Lachlan
 

jim appleyard

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Messages
2,415
Format
Multi Format
Lachlan Young said:
Do you know of any good Glycin type developers for film (I know about Ansco 130 for paper)?

Lachlan
Click to expand...

There are several between the two books: Anchell's, "The Darkroom Cookbook" and Anchell & Troops, "The Film Developing Cookbook".

Glycin is not the most popular dev in the world, although a good one, and many of the recipes have vague starting points for EI's and times. Glycin is expensive, sometimes hard to locate and you may have to use quite a bit of it in those devs to nail down your EI's and times.

But hey, life is short and darkroom time is special. Have fun!
 
OP
OP

df cardwell

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
3,357
Location
Dearborn,Mic
Format
Multi Format
Lachlan Young said:
I posted that formula in the Chemistry Recipes section yesterday, but thanks for all the extra info about the developer. Also, what is the correct amount of Glycin as one source lists it as being 5g but two others as being 15g?

Lachlan
Click to expand...

I double checked Lowe, and 5 grams it is.

Also, the most renowned contemporary formulary, Geoffrey Crawley's FX-2... wonderful developer... maybe the best all around formula going.

d
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…