ECN 2 psuedo process

[nickandre]

How might I process ECN2 without the chemistry if I don't want to send it out. What color developer does it use? Can ammonia be used to remove the remjet backing?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ammonia cannot be used to remove the rem-jet backing.

The process is posted here somewhere.

PE

 

[srs5694]

Check (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for the ECN-II formula, assuming you're willing to mix it from scratch. If not, I've heard of people successfully using C-41 chemistry, but I've never done this myself, and I suspect there'd be color shifts and perhaps reduced color stability over the long haul.

 

[nickandre]

It uses the same CD as E6 film...

 

[Photo Engineer]

Just remember that motion picture color negative is built to have a contrast (gamma) of 0.50 and therefore is way too low for conventional color print materials. It is only truly compatible with motion picture print stock.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

I would not know about the results from C-41 other than to say that the dye hues would not be correct. Comparing CD3 and CD4 dyes, the CD4 dyes are generally shifted to longer wavelengths and are broader. They also have worse dye stability. Now, this is not so if the couplers are chosen to be specific to the given developing agent. So, CD4 films have different couplers designed to be "correct" with their own developing agent.

The film is "coupler limited" to give this low contrast, so I would expect that there will be some limit you cannot exceed, and even what you are doing should give some crossover.

You might try shooting a step wedge and then plotting the results to see what is going on there. You might be surprised.

PE

 

[nickandre]

If this is relevant I'm shooting super 8 movie film which I will transfer using some digital camera with a magnifying glass and a cannibalized super 8 viewer. I plan to process it by winding it around a 3 inch PVC pipe with wire guides which I plan to assemble and stick in a larger enclosed pvc pipe. If I remove the remjet after a prebath it will be in the dark for every single one of the 50 feet blind with an old t shirt. As such I'm considering skipping the prebath and removing the remjet after the stop.

So should I use the E6 CD3 color dev or the C41 dev which has CD4 but which I have about 10 gallons of?

 

[Photo Engineer]

You will get rem-jet carbon in the developer, and this will probably get into the gelatin and cause bad black defects in the image (if any). If you use the E6 color developer, it will cause severe fog.

PE

 

[nickandre]

But the e6 kit color developer doesn't have the chemical fogger... it's just a CD3 developer, which is, at least, similar to the ECN2 developer. I would use it one shot with light agitation.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Then go ahead and ignore my advice!

E6 color developer contains ethylene diamine, which is a silver halide solvent! It also contains citrazinic acid which is a "colorless" coupler. It actually forms a soluable cyan dye which washes out of the film. Either of these will affect color negative development adversely.

There are other ingredients that interfere with negative color development but assist reversal color development, but I think I have made my point.

Oh, the pH of the ECN color developer is about 10.x whereas the E6 color developer is abou 11.x. I forget the actual decimal values but the first two digits should give you a small hint.

PE

 

[Emulsion]

I spotted an interesting result where ECN-2 motion picture film was processed in C-41 chemistry.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonathanbowerbank/sets/72157614573399785/

There is some reticulation but surely that would be caused by temperature issues rather than chemistry.

Overall the results look very good IMHO.

He used:
"Tetenal C-41 kit from B&H and processed according to the supplied directions in a Paterson jobo tank."
"Once the film had dried completely, I took a wet cloth and sihttp://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37036&hl=mply wiped off the rem-jet backing. "

There is more written at:
http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37036&hl=

Cheers,
Emulsion.

 

[Aurum]

Certainly a Pastel look which I suspect is from the inherant low contrast, but not that shoddy by any means

 

[nickandre]

For remjet backing I use sodium sulphite in water. I've given up on this process though.

 

[nworth]

SD-49 is the listed developer:

Kodak SD-49
Color negative motion picture film developer for Process ECN-2

Water (21 – 38C) 850 ml
Kodak Anti-Calcium No. 4 2 ml
Sodium sulfite (anh) 2 g
Sodium bromide (anh) 1.2 g
Sodium carbonate (anh) 25.6 g
Sodium bicarbonate 2.7 g
CD-3 4 g
Kodak Antifoggant AF-2000 5 ml
Water to make 1 l

pH at 25C = 10.25; density = 1.029

Develop 3 minutes at 41.1C (106F)

PE's comments about contrast and stability should be taken seriously. If you are going to scan the negatives, motion picture film negative will probably work.

 

[alanrockwood]

Photo-Therm gives instructions for developing ECN-2 film using C-41 chemicals in their processor.

The Remjet coating is an issue. In a conventional C-41 process this might foul the solutions. However, Photo-Therm is a one-shot processor, so fouling due to the Remjet coating should not be much of an issue, at least not according to the Photo-Therm people.

I don't know if the quality is any good. However, Photo Engineer consistently warns against developing ECN-2 film using C-41 chemistry, and he probably knows better than any of us.

 

[Emulsion]

Cruzingoose those are great results! Congratulations.

You mentioned that the C-41 was at a slightly lower temperature. What did you find worked best?

Did you use a Tetanal or other kit? How many baths did you use?

Thanks from,
Emulsion

 

[alanrockwood]

... picture color negative is built to have a contrast (gamma) of 0.50 and ... is way too low for conventional color print materials...

PE

Could you push process the ECN-2 film in C-41 chemistry to get the contrast up to "normal" values for conventional print materials?

If so, I assume that this might introduce a color shift. If so, could one make some adjustment, such as altered pH to re-balance the color shift?

I am assuming single-shot processing here.

Thanks.

 

[nworth]

These are scanned 8x10s and the only adjustments are to match the print as close as possible. I've been working with ECN films (Kodak and Fuji) and come up with two different processes. One for high contrast and one for low contrast. The high contrast process uses the standard C-41 process at a slightly reduced temperature and standard times, and the low contrast process uses RA4 at normal temperature and a three minute develop time. Extended RA4 developing time will likely increase contrast, but I have not tried it yet. I have used: Fuji 8563 250iso daylight, Fuji 8592 500iso daylight, Fuji 8522 64isodaylight and Kodak 5201 64iso daylight. ...

.

Unfortunately, your examples seem to demonstrate the problems. The lower contrast examples really lack contrast and color, and the colors are off a bit. The high contrast examples are very high contrast, bluish, and seem to have poor color tracking. But I agree with your last comment - experiment!

 

[bdilgard]

I really like the effect on #2 & #5. I have tried some ideas that are floating around to use highly diluted C41 developer and stand or semi-stand development at room temp but the results have been terrible so far. I was hoping to make the chemicals use/misuse more economical this way.

 

[Emulsion]

All this talk about cross-processing has set me thinking.

1) RA4 developer uses CD3. (CAS# 25646-71-3)

2) CD3 is the correct developer for ECN2 (motion picture negative).

Question: Are there any pH, concentration or other issues with RA4 that make its use with ECN2 a problem?

Emulsion.

PS: The ready availability of RA4 chemistry could make processing ECN2 easier. Even if one part of the RA4 kit needs to be replaced with a "custom" formula it would be worthwhile. CD3 is often hard to source and very expensive internationally. RA4 kits are common though.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The ECN process is optimized for a Br/I emulsion and the RA4 process is optimized for a Cl/Br emulsion (actually nearly a pure Cl). You go figure.

PE

 

[Emulsion]

The ECN process is optimized for a Br/I emulsion and the RA4 process is optimized for a Cl/Br emulsion (actually nearly a pure Cl). You go figure.
PE

Thanks PE. I appreciate your help.

Is there any way to add another ingredient to make it more suitable for Br/I?

Thanks From,
Emulsion.

PS: For those who aren't aware, there is a strong incentive to use ECN2 films as they are available VERY cheaply. Eg 10c/foot. AND they use the latest in Kodak/Fuji film technology . They do have different contrast and also Remjet backing however these issues IMHO are outweighed by the price and technology advantages.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I could make a wild guess, but due to the difference in CD4 and CD3 activity, my chances of being right are pretty slim. I'll think about it. Jog my memory in a few months.

PE

 

[alanrockwood]

I could make a wild guess, but due to the difference in CD4 and CD3 activity, my chances of being right are pretty slim. I'll think about it. Jog my memory in a few months.

PE

Jog!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ok, CD-3 and CD-4 are not interchangable. The dye hue shifts due to polarity and the activity differences will cause problems.

And, you cannot take a developer designed for Br/I emulsions and make it into a developer for Cl/Br emulsions. You must remove ingredients, but you can take a developer for Cl/Br emulsions and change it into one for Br/I emulsions by addition of ingredients.

PE