ECN-2 processing questions

PaulYW · Feb 18, 2023

Hello. I'm using Kodak Flexicolor C-41RA chemicals to process ECN-2 films.

Before I pour C-41 developer, I finish the prebath step and remove the remjet as much as possible.

But I'm getting some issues that I never had before.

One is that there is some kind of Aura on the scanned images as follows,

I have no idea why this happens, Is it from uneven remjet residue on the film surface?

The other is that there are blue dots all over on the scanned images.

Also I have no idea why I'm getting them. I replenish every chemical after I finish processing each time.

Thank you.

Rudeofus · Feb 18, 2023

You say, that you "remove the remjet", yet the way you write this suggests, that you have the film on the spool inside your film tank, then pour in the prebath, maybe agitate, then pour out the prebath and start developing. Is this what you do for remjet removal, or could you describe your process steps up to color developer in a bit more detail?

PaulYW · Feb 18, 2023

Rudeofus said:
You say, that you "remove the remjet", yet the way you write this suggests, that you have the film on the spool inside your film tank, then pour in the prebath, maybe agitate, then pour out the prebath and start developing. Is this what you do for remjet removal, or could you describe your process steps up to color developer in a bit more detail?

Hello. My Remjet removal step is as follows,

1.First, i pour prebath into the tank and wait and pour out chemical and pour water in.
2.Shake the tank so remjet can be removed.
3.pour water out, pour fresh water in and repeat 2~3 step for 3-4 times.
4.Then i start pouring developer..

I dumped old C-41RA chemicals and used relatively fresh solution from the working solution tank in the processor.
The result was same.. that makes me to conclude Prebath chemical is exhausted or there is something wrong with my Remjet removal step..
Maybe i should replenish Prebath chemical more. I replenished 22ml for each 135-36 roll.

cmacd123 · Feb 18, 2023

it has been years since I played with ECN2 film at home, but at the time I had to use Celulose Sponges on each side, (to keep the rem jet form getting on the emulsion side) and wipe about 6 inches of the film at a time with rinsing the sponges in running water between each wipe.

koraks · Feb 19, 2023

PaulYW said:
One is that there is some kind of Aura on the scanned images as follows,

That looks like a flow mark, possibly caused by too long a time between pouring in the chemistry and starting agitation. Want kind of setup are you using?

The spots are odd given their multi-colored appearance. Remjet remnants are possible though. I always used to wipe down ECN2 film immediately after processing with a soft cloth or tissue paper to get rid of the final bits of remjet. It never clears entirely in the prebath.

PaulYW · Feb 19, 2023

cmacd123 said:
it has been years since I played with ECN2 film at home, but at the time I had to use Celulose Sponges on each side, (to keep the rem jet form getting on the emulsion side) and wipe about 6 inches of the film at a time with rinsing the sponges in running water between each wipe.

Hello. Do you mean you clean the ECN-2 films before starting developing process?

koraks said:
That looks like a flow mark, possibly caused by too long a time between pouring in the chemistry and starting agitation. Want kind of setup are you using?

The spots are odd given their multi-colored appearance. Remjet remnants are possible though. I always used to wipe down ECN2 film immediately after processing with a soft cloth or tissue paper to get rid of the final bits of remjet. It never clears entirely in the prebath.

Hello. I'm using a Filmomat for the C-41RA process. It takes around 5~8 seconds pouring the developer and starting agitation. I also put the wash step between the bleach and fix step.

Did you have any issues with the outputs when you process ECN-2 films after removing Remjet partially in the Prebath step?
I'm not sure if partially left Remjet is the problem. If it is, then I should remove Remjet completely before starting the process but it will be so much pain in the ass...

koraks · Feb 19, 2023

PaulYW said:
Did you have any issues with the outputs when you process ECN-2 films after removing Remjet partially in the Prebath step?

Not really; I would get some remjet remnants if I didn't wipe off the film carefully enough, but that's just a matter of practice.

Do you use a stop bath between develop and bleach?

PaulYW · Feb 19, 2023

koraks said:
Not really; I would get some remjet remnants if I didn't wipe off the film carefully enough, but that's just a matter of practice.

Do you use a stop bath between develop and bleach?

I see. I wish i could have a stop bath but there is only 3 chemical tanks in the Filmomat.
I just start bleach step right after develop step. I replenish around 9ml of bleach for each roll.

Today, I used chemicals and bleach from waste in the C-41 processor and replenished and tested processing.
The result was the same. I should test again with fresh Prebath chemical soon..

koraks · Feb 19, 2023

Did you try wiping down the film after processing it?
Is the first defect perhaps an ordinary dry mark?

I don't think a new prebath is going to help. Give it a try, but don't expect too much from it

PaulYW · Feb 19, 2023

koraks said:
Did you try wiping down the film after processing it?
Is the first defect perhaps an ordinary dry mark?

I don't think a new prebath is going to help. Give it a try, but don't expect too much from it

Yes, I always wipe down films very clean until i don't see any remjet left.
Do you mean dry mark, "green aura" on the scanned images? Yes i see them sometimes but i don't know why this happens.

If new prebath doesn't solve the problem, i don't know what is the problem and how to solve even if i use use fresh chemicals.

koraks · Feb 19, 2023

PaulYW said:
Do you mean dry mark, "green aura" on the scanned images?

Yes, that one. Check the shiny side of the film to see if there's a drying mark there. They usually have these bulbous shapes. I wouldn't expect them if the film has been wiped down though.
The picture is a bit small and I find it hard to guess what it looks like in context. Perhaps a somewhat larger image could help.

PaulYW · Feb 19, 2023

koraks said:
Yes, that one. Check the shiny side of the film to see if there's a drying mark there. They usually have these bulbous shapes. I wouldn't expect them if the film has been wiped down though.
The picture is a bit small and I find it hard to guess what it looks like in context. Perhaps a somewhat larger image could help.

I attached more photos for your reference.

koraks · Feb 19, 2023

This looks like a major problem with chemistry coverage. Are you using a sufficient amount of chemistry for this tank?

PaulYW · Feb 19, 2023

koraks said:
This looks like a major problem with chemistry coverage. Are you using a sufficient amount of chemistry for this tank?

Yes I pour 500ml for each chemicals for the process. I pour around 550ml for the developer just in case.
The developer working solution comes from C-41 processor tank that contains around 36L.

Sonynolta User · Feb 23, 2023

What are you using for prebath? I have found even using Kodak's lye based prebath, I still need a light wipedown in the final wash solution with a pecpad or fine sponge.
Those dots looking almost like a cyan dot is a bit concerning, remjet specs are usually solid white (black spec on the neg)
I don't think (but I'm no PhotoEngineer) those streaks are from drydown. It looks like some chemistry is interering with something.
If you can't use a stop bath, can you add a wash step between dev & bleach?
Anyways, I think I'd contact the filmomat people. However, I would be a bit scared of something that takes ~5-8 sec to fill before it starts agitating. Is your RA chemistry the one with a 2 min bleach & 2 min fix?
3:15/2/2 does not leave a lot of room for error or slop, at least in my world.

PaulYW · Feb 23, 2023

d

Sonynolta User said:
What are you using for prebath? I have found even using Kodak's lye based prebath, I still need a light wipedown in the final wash solution with a pecpad or fine sponge.
Those dots looking almost like a cyan dot is a bit concerning, remjet specs are usually solid white (black spec on the neg)
I don't think (but I'm no PhotoEngineer) those streaks are from drydown. It looks like some chemistry is interering with something.
If you can't use a stop bath, can you add a wash step between dev & bleach?
Anyways, I think I'd contact the filmomat people. However, I would be a bit scared of something that takes ~5-8 sec to fill before it starts agitating. Is your RA chemistry the one with a 2 min bleach & 2 min fix?
3:15/2/2 does not leave a lot of room for error or slop, at least in my world.

Hello. I used the ECN-2 prebath from Kodak. I clean the film until i see no Remjet residue.
I processed 3:15/1:30/3:00 for the process.
Have you added a wash step between develop and bleach step before? I haven't tested yet so not sure if it could be a problem when we add a wash step.

Sonynolta User · Feb 23, 2023

PaulYW said:
d

Hello. I used the ECN-2 prebath from Kodak. I clean the film until i see no Remjet residue.
I processed 3:15/1:30/3:00 for the process.
Have you added a wash step between develop and bleach step before? I haven't tested yet so not sure if it could be a problem when we add a wash step.

Paul-
I use a Jobo, and I usually use a wash between dev and fix. I use the Kodak Flexicolor, but not the RA version.
I oneshot my dev but I do tend to reuse my bleach & fix, so I do a quick rinse between. Maybe not Kodak gospel, but it could prevent problems / contamination.
I wonder if maybe you could extend your bleach. I think bleach is to completion, so I wonder if going to 2 or 3 min may help, I don't think overbleaching a bit would hurt (I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong)
My guesses anyways...

koraks · Feb 23, 2023

Sonynolta User said:
I don't think overbleaching a bit would hurt

It won't. Bleach & fix are both to completion, and virtually cannot be taken to excess. Feel free to rebleach & refix negatives, and/or use 300% longer bleach & fix times to nail down problems etc.
I don't even know what the official bleach & fix times for my C41 chemistry are, only that they're way shorter than the 3m15s I use for convenience's sake - I can leave the timer set to the same timer for all steps in the process. Doesn't hurt a thing, provided the times are extended, not shortened.

brbo · Feb 23, 2023

Initially, I thought that your uneven development might have a thing with RA process. I struggle with uneven development in 4x5" with standard C-41 process and I think it has all to do with going from developer to bleach. I added a stop and wash between dev and bleach for that reason. Again, that is standard C-41 with considerably less aggressive bleach. I can't imagine going from developer straight to RA bleach.

But, since you obviously only have problem with ECN-2 film, that must not be the reason.

I looked up Filmomat and saw that it uses standard Jobo 2500 tank series reels. Then I remembered that I once (and only once) used my 2500 series tank for my 135 ECN-2 film and noticed that my remjet pre-removal was less effective and more uneven than usual (I always use smaller 1500 series tank form my 135 film). At that time I also noticed there was some uneven development. Again, I only did my ECN-2 development in 2500 tank once and didn't go looking for the source of the problem, so it might have been anything...

PaulYW · Feb 23, 2023

Sonynolta User said:
Paul-
I use a Jobo, and I usually use a wash between dev and fix. I use the Kodak Flexicolor, but not the RA version.
I oneshot my dev but I do tend to reuse my bleach & fix, so I do a quick rinse between. Maybe not Kodak gospel, but it could prevent problems / contamination.
I wonder if maybe you could extend your bleach. I think bleach is to completion, so I wonder if going to 2 or 3 min may help, I don't think overbleaching a bit would hurt (I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong)
My guesses anyways...

I see. I will try to extend bleach time for the process.
Speaking of the wash step, Do you mean you add wash step like, develop-wash-bleach-wash-fix?
Thank you.

koraks said:
It won't. Bleach & fix are both to completion, and virtually cannot be taken to excess. Feel free to rebleach & refix negatives, and/or use 300% longer bleach & fix times to nail down problems etc.
I don't even know what the official bleach & fix times for my C41 chemistry are, only that they're way shorter than the 3m15s I use for convenience's sake - I can leave the timer set to the same timer for all steps in the process. Doesn't hurt a thing, provided the times are extended, not shortened.

Hello. May i ask if we can add wash step between develop and bleach? Thank you.

koraks · Feb 23, 2023

PaulYW said:
Hello. May i ask if we can add wash step between develop and bleach? Thank you.

Yes, but a stop bath would be the first to consider. An additional wash step after the stop bath won't hurt, but won't help much either.

PaulYW · Feb 23, 2023

koraks said:
Yes, but a stop bath would be the first to consider. An additional wash step after the stop bath won't hurt, but won't help much either.

I see. Thank you for your reply. Could we also use the stop chemical made for the B/W process? Such as the Ilfostop from Ilford? If possible, we would consider to use it and replenish the stop bath..

koraks · Feb 23, 2023

Any acetic acid stop bath will work, although the official ECN2 process calls for a sulfuric acid stop bath. Citric acid ('odourless stop bath') apparently is not appropriate for color processes, although I don't know exactly why that is.

Sonynolta User · Feb 24, 2023

PaulYW said:
I see. I will try to extend bleach time for the process.
Speaking of the wash step, Do you mean you add wash step like, develop-wash-bleach-wash-fix?
Thank you.

Yes, I add a wash between my dev and bleach. I have used Kodak indicator stop between steps at times.

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