ECN-2 Processing problem

mudfly9 · Apr 7, 2014

Having had success with developing CineStill 800T in the homebrew recipe listed (there was a url link here which no longer exists), I've treated myself to a 400' roll of Vision3 500T. The first roll I developed, using a sodium carbonate remjet removal before developing, came out very dark with a barely discernible image. After remixing all the chemicals using distilled water, here's what I've found happens if I process unexposed film:

Sodium carbonate (20g/l) remjet removal, dev, bleach, fix, stab - This produces extremely dark film, edge marking almost invisible.
Dev, remjet removal, bleach, fix, stab - This produces completely clear (orange) film, as expected.

Is there any reason why the sodium carbonate appears to be fogging the film? Kodak lists an alternative pre-bath that uses sodium bicarbonate as well as sodium carbonate, might this be the key? I'm going to try doing this tonight but thought I'd see whether anyone could shed any light on this.

Athiril · Apr 7, 2014

Try washing after removal, to get the base/alkali out of the film.

I usually use borax or sodium bicarbonate, and use very little of it at that.

mudfly9 · Apr 7, 2014

I washed it for about 30 mins after removing the remjet so that can't have been it. My girlfriend convinced me to have a night off from photography stuff so the test has been postponed!

Athiril · Apr 7, 2014

Wash it mixed fresh? Or re-used solution? I'm wondering about possible contamination.

Dr Croubie · Apr 7, 2014

Have you tried dev/bleach/fix as normal, and then remjet removal afterwards?
I haven't tried it (yet, still trying to get some cheap 800T), but I've read people just processing in normal C41 then 'wiping' the remjet off afterwards, would that approach not work with a Na2CO3 or NaHCO3 wash instead of wiping?

StoneNYC · Apr 7, 2014

There's two problems, one is that if you wait to remove the RemJet till after, you end up contaminating the emulsion with more RemJet as it falls off the back between chemistry cycles, and two you contaminate those chemistries with bits of RemJet and then that carries over to the next round of development and it gets even worse with more contamination.

So removing it first is the better move I would think.

I don't know why it would cause any darkening of the film though, I've asked before and to my recollection PE said sodium bicarbonate shouldn't be causing any development issues, I can't recall why I was asking though, but I remember asking if the sodium bicarbonate could ruin the film and was told that it wouldn't.

Dr Croubie · Apr 8, 2014

StoneNYC said:
There's two problems, one is that if you wait to remove the RemJet till after, you end up contaminating the emulsion with more RemJet as it falls off the back between chemistry cycles, and two you contaminate those chemistries with bits of RemJet and then that carries over to the next round of development and it gets even worse with more contamination.

So removing it first is the better move I would think.

I don't know why it would cause any darkening of the film though, I've asked before and to my recollection PE said sodium bicarbonate shouldn't be causing any development issues, I can't recall why I was asking though, but I remember asking if the sodium bicarbonate could ruin the film and was told that it wouldn't.

The place I read about removing remjet after C41-dev was actually at Steve Huff Photo.
Now that I've read it again he does say that 'it will ruin the chems' and that he uses 'waste lab chems', so he's probably just doing it one-shot and ditching it so doesn't worry about contamination. If only we could all get waste-chems to play with....

Anyway, the only other option is Cinestill, which is removed pre-taking, which would add to halation (depending on whether that's actually what you want).
So yeah, taking then removing remjet then developing certainly makes the most sense to me too now.

Also, I just noticed Stone and Athiril said 'Sodium Bicarbonate' (NaHCO3), and the OP said Sodium Carbonate (Na2CO3). Maybe just a slight confusion of chemicals could be leading to these results?

mudfly9 · Apr 8, 2014

I'd heard of Borax, Sodium Carb and Sodium BiCarb being used for remjet removal and Kodak's alternative prewash is 58g carb and 19g bicarb. When conducting my own tests of chemical/agitation based removal I found the 15 min soak 'n shake with carb was by far the best, with the solution coming out very black.

I've had the slight setback of a leaking Jobo (and a poor, dripped on dog) but I'll carry on testing tonight and perhaps not be so bold as to assume I can omit an ingredient from a Kodak formula!

Xmas · Apr 8, 2014

When using stock dev I normally put it through a coffee filter/funnel after use to reduce frequency of film 'chips' from the mono cine I use. I don't do this with normal film.

The film may come with stuck on chips...

As I read it the ECN REM JET process is two stage a soften bath then a water knife or spounge removal the machines have anti carry over after steps.

I don't want to try ECN film I have lots of C41 bulk. But I think Id 'want to' filter the Dev as I do with mono cine.

Lastly I always shoot a film out the den window I use for test I've learnt that this necessary to avoid a problem in the next roll... last such a problem was Feb 14 duuuuua.

But if the op can get good results without pre removal then filtering the solutions only needs three labeled jugs and a soft spounge wipe one side after.

Or one shot the prebath... but maybe filter the dev.

If a filter has black remjet residue you know you may have a problem like my mono cine... cause the remjet won't just be in the filter.

Athiril · Apr 8, 2014

Remjet from experience doesn't ruin chemistry. You just need to filter your chemistry, which if you're running replenished you need to do anyway.

If the film was so easily damaged from remjet particles floating in solution, a wet remjet bath the film passed through wouldn't work. Please see the Kodak document on motion picture processing, which shows processor design.

If you agitate the hell out of the remjet softening bath with the film, and rinse/wash, you shouldn't have much remjet come off in other solutions during regular agitation anyway.

Oxleyroad · Apr 22, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Have you tried dev/bleach/fix as normal, and then remjet removal afterwards?
I haven't tried it (yet, still trying to get some cheap 800T), but I've read people just processing in normal C41 then 'wiping' the remjet off afterwards, would that approach not work with a Na2CO3 or NaHCO3 wash instead of wiping?

Dr, If you're after cine film I've got some various lengths I could send you. Don't have 800t but do have 500t and various daylight speeds.

VPooler · Apr 27, 2014

Okay, I have done the ECN2 process both with and without prewash. Without prewash (baking soda), the negatives are clearer and more familiar orange tint, but the development time must be adjusted to 5 minutes with fresh developer (ECN2 dev), add some 15 seconds for every roll processed and 30 seconds to a minute for 1 week of storage. I just pulled out two rolls, rubbed the remjet off under running water with smooth and slippery PVC rubber gloves and the negatives are okay. The developer keeps well in a well-sealed bottle if there is no air in, I mixed the dev one and a half week ago and didn't even filter it!

Aidrian Long · Dec 3, 2018

Do you only agitate at the pre-soak stage , or through out the process?

Oxleyroad · Dec 29, 2018

When I am processing in my Lomo tank I am agitating (rotating the spirals back and forth) quickly 5 times every min. A bit like I would do with my 35mm film in a developing tank. However when I am taking off the remjet, after the sodium carbonate bath I wash, shake, agitate vigorously to remove as much as I can before I start the developing.

newcan1 · Dec 31, 2018

VPooler said:
but the development time must be adjusted to 5 minutes with fresh developer (ECN2 dev),

Halleluliah! I thought it odd that my films took about 5mins to develop properly, although no one else here had raised that before. I also find that increasing the amount of CD3 a little helps (I would have to consult my notes re: how much).

I thought the main formula for remjet removal prebath contains Sodium Sulfate (NOT sulfite) and maybe a bit of sodium hydroxide. I have used this successfully with vigorous agitation and vigorous-agitation-rinses afterwards. But I have found that with Kodak emulsions, it is just as good to wait to the end for remjet removal; it stays pretty stuck to the film until wiped off. Fuji, however, comes out in the developer, kind of messing it up. That's my experience anyway.

lantau · Jan 2, 2019

newcan1 said:
Halleluliah! I thought it odd that my films took about 5mins to develop properly, although no one else here had raised that before. I also find that increasing the amount of CD3 a little helps (I would have to consult my notes re: how much).

I thought the main formula for remjet removal prebath contains Sodium Sulfate (NOT sulfite) and maybe a bit of sodium hydroxide. I have used this successfully with vigorous agitation and vigorous-agitation-rinses afterwards. But I have found that with Kodak emulsions, it is just as good to wait to the end for remjet removal; it stays pretty stuck to the film until wiped off. Fuji, however, comes out in the developer, kind of messing it up. That's my experience anyway.

If you develop without prebath your alkaline developer will have to the job of loosening the remjet coat. Perhaps that will reduce activity. I have to admit that it is a bit far fetched, though. I would expect the developer being sufficiently buffered.

I manually remove remjet before the film goes onto the spiral and into the tank and the emulsion isn't touched by the alkaline prebath. When developing I prewash the film in the tank with plain warm water to get the temperature up before the developer goes in. I'm always running the required 3:00min and get regular negatives. The prewash also flushes out copious amounts of dye. When you 'remove' remjet in the tank you won't be seeing that dye, of course.

I do C41 with the same prewash to get the temperature up and C41 Kodak films also release lots of dye.

I use the carbonate/bicarbonate version of the remjet prebath, btw. Those chemicals can be conveniently bought at a drugstore. The primary prebath recipe calls for sodium *sulfate*, indeed. Not sulfite. And sodium hydroxide as well as borax. The borax I don't have in my chemical cabinet, because it cannot be sold by mail order here. So I don't do any borax recipes until I get some. And I won't waste it on prebath.

koraks · Jan 2, 2019

I use the borax/sulfite remjet removal bath that is published online. Works a treat, but I suspect many formulas will have the same effect. I soak the film for 2 minutes or so and then do the fill-shake vigorously rinse routine 3 or 4 times. 95% of the remjet disappears in the first rinse, the rest is gone after the second rinse. Then a temper bath to get the tank and film up to the correct temperature followed by development. I currently develop for 3m15s at 41C but gamma is on the low side for RA4 printing even with +2/3 exposure compensation. I'll have to try extended development, I think something like 4m15-4m30 should be in the ballpark. Compared to C41 film, the prints require a lot more yellow (something like 30cc more) and a little less magenta (some 10cc less). There is some crossover in the yellow-blue axis with blue shadows and yellowish highlights. Perhaps longer development will alleviate this a bit, but I'll have to test a bit more. I've been using Vision3 50D but got similar results with a roll of 500T a friend asked me to develop.

dmr · Jan 2, 2019

mudfly9 said:
CineStill 800T

Uh, I thought Cinestill came with the remjet already removed.

The one roll of Vision 3 I developed, I did the usual develop and blix, then removed the remjet in a baking soda solution with a manual finger wipe, then stabilizer.

lantau · Jan 7, 2019

dmr said:
Uh, I thought Cinestill came with the remjet already removed.

The one roll of Vision 3 I developed, I did the usual develop and blix, then removed the remjet in a baking soda solution with a manual finger wipe, then stabilizer.

The OP, many years ago, stated that he tried a roll of Cinestill and then he switched to Vision3.

ECN-2 Processing problem

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