ECN-2 control strips (special outdated order from BH)

I have been waiting for these with a special order from BH Photo for a month, maybe.

It was my surprise to get them as a New Year present.. but outdated (due to 01.2021).
It was not and it is not mentioned on their web page that it is low-date or out-date.


And for the most, I have been surprised to get this very helpful ctrl-c-ctrl-v feedback for my "whats-up?":

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" I received the order on December 24, 2020 and on the box the expiration date is 01.2021.
...
This situation is unacceptable for a store with such a reputation as B&H . You must inform the client about such a late date.
Therefore, I have several questions.
May I buy a fresh Kodak Vision3 Color Negative Control Strips (BH #KOV3CS35100)?
Is there any way to get a discount on new purchase? "
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" I'm really sorry about this. What I can suggest is to keep what's not being used in your fridge until needed as it extends the life. Once needed, take the film out of your fridge approximately 2 hours prior to use.

Please let us know if you require any further assistance.
Thank you, we appreciate your business. "
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Am I too sensitive to feel like I was .. asked to go process it myself?
Or with this rare and almost unavailable type of Control-strip, I should be grateful BH ?

Sorry, if not the correct forum thread, please advise/move is so.

I received a box of Fuji C41 control strips two days ago and had the exact same happen. This is my very first box and an experiment trying to do replenishment with process control at home. My box says: Process before 2021.1. I ordered this domestically and I could have just called them about it. But I hate having to deal with things like that. It would be another wait and if there is no fresher product then only a refund... So I decided to keep it. I'm optimistic it won't make much or any difference.

More important than the date is that it has always been stored frozen until it was sent out. In the online shop this item has a delivery time of 4-6 days instead of the usual 1-3. That is why I assumed they'd order it fresh from Fuji and then send it out. But it was sent out on the second business day after my order already. So I'm not sure if it has been sitting around at the shop or at Fuji Germany.

Your box contains 120 control strips. Unless you are a commercial cine lab I guess it will take you a long time to use them and that makes it twice as troublesome. I understand your frustration! I expect shipping from Kiev into the EU is going to be troublesome (and might involve X-Ray treatment), otherwise I'd offer to buy a part of the roll from you. I do ECN-2 replenished, as well, and I'd love to get my hands on ECN-2 control strips.

That reply from B+H sounds like they don't really know what to do about it. That suggestion is what I'd recommend for an ordinary film, but not really for an expensive precision product like this.

Is there anyone here, who used to handle Kodak or Fuji control strips and remembers what their shelf life was, typically? Perhaps it is normal have only a month or so to use them up?

Probably better to get a sensitometer and expose your own, on your own film, just before you need them.

I wonder why this DIY approach never has been discussed here.

Even if I could find one, how would I know how good it is? A sensitometer is an ultrahigh precision instrument. It stands at the origin of a process chain. If it still used a bulb and I changed it I'd consider it broken.

I'm going to be testing film/developer combinations. So I guess I'll do what you suggest by having a filmstrip with a stepwedge on top of it in a 4x5 filmholder and expose it in my LF camera using a light plate and external meter. But I don't think that is repeatable at the accuracy needed for process monitoring. Perhaps with a 35mm camera. But I'd need a target for a single 35mm frame and each field large enough for my densitometer to read it from that single frame. Only then could I fill one film with identically exposed frames. Hopefully.

A home made sensitometer will expose control strips. Maybe you don't understand how the control strip is used, but you would make your 'control' master strip with the process running at its optimum. All subsequent control strips would need to match your master. The sensitometer characteristics play almost no role in the process. Maybe you are confusing control strips with ISO testing facility?

For $20 you can get a GREEN BLUE sensitometer to control those two colors and assume RED will fall in place if those two are correct. Otherwise you can spend more to get a white light version.

lantau said:

I received a box of Fuji C41 control strips two days ago and had the exact same happen. This is my very first box and an experiment trying to do replenishment with process control at home. My box says: Process before 2021.1. I ordered this domestically and I could have just called them about it. But I hate having to deal with things like that. It would be another wait and if there is no fresher product then only a refund... So I decided to keep it. I'm optimistic it won't make much or any difference.

Click to expand...

I think that Fuji makes control strips once a year in the beginning. Cause I bought maybe 4 packs already this year and they all were fresh for using "right now", but probably produced a 01.month. I need to recheck.
All of Fuji controls I got from BH and that is why I was actually LOL when opened a box of ECN strips on 01.2021. But I was mad getting that answer from bhpv.

Really, if a guy would even write me kidding that "we were trying to get in time with the present" or "sorry, we are in the same position dependent on our supplier..." or whatever human being could write to human being.
But they used this ctrl+c / ctrl+v approach (ignoring to reply by subj) and that is max insulting.

I have the same problem ordering Fuji Strips domestically through Fuji dealer. So I did that thought bhpv as decided that their turnover may grant hope for the fresh stock.
From our experience, Fuj strips bought over the year are about 0.02 D stable and that is actually the precision of our xite810.
I think it might work well for you frozen from the point of replenishment control.

BUT I didn't wish to start Kodak/Fuji C41 strips quality flame yet cause felt like I am already overlooked by forum members like fumes-over-the-fun thrower.
This outdated issue is not the worst thing you would force as soon as you opened c41 control strips pandora box.

Our testing of 4 different c41 chemistry brands in two parallel running processors and fresh Kodak and Fuji control strips advice that measured result would not have a connection with reality.
So they wouldn't help you measure your distance from the optimum process (except probably Y-bleach filed that works very logically). Only control the day-to-day behavior of your chemistry.

I think I need to start a new thread about what are these c41 Fuji and Kodak strips are trying to say us. I think I would need few days to sort through images and notes to make a post logically supported.

lantau said:

More important than the date is that it has always been stored frozen until it was sent out. In the online shop this item has a delivery time of 4-6 days instead of the usual 1-3. That is why I assumed they'd order it fresh from Fuji and then send it out. But it was sent out on the second business day after my order already. So I'm not sure if it has been sitting around at the shop or at Fuji Germany.

Click to expand...

I am not so optimistic about people. I would suppose that things are mostly not good about storage so the best chance is to keep things rolling.
Manufacture storage I think is OK as these guys bear final user quality complaints.
So ideal situation for me (you also write about that) is this frozen box ride to the resaler and asap reshipped to the user.
With bhpv before this time, I worked like this - Fuji c41 controls were sometimes on stock, sometimes on the way or preorder.

lantau said:

Your box contains 120 control strips. Unless you are a commercial cine lab I guess it will take you a long time to use them and that makes it twice as troublesome. I understand your frustration! I expect shipping from Kiev into the EU is going to be troublesome (and might involve X-Ray treatment), otherwise I'd offer to buy a part of the roll from you. I do ECN-2 replenished, as well, and I'd love to get my hands on ECN-2 control strips.

Click to expand...

We are a commercial photo lab. Not cine. This box was mostly needed to coordinate our ECN-2 development process and results with what was intended by Kodak.
Especially how should we deal with clients claiming that we are not doing things right. Right for the client is often as it was told to him by his fellow or another lab (often not processing ECN2 at all ), or some results he had with other processing.
We are sure that results adjusted to ECN control strip aims wouldn't be met by the photo community as optimal/best. But we need to test and have it as an argument in dialogue.

I would like to share some strips with you, no problems. Shipping to Germany (I suppose by your mention) might involve the risk of fogging, no way to exclude it 100%.
We could talk about how to pass the film to you in PM if you wish.

lantau said:

That reply from B+H sounds like they don't really know what to do about it. That suggestion is what I'd recommend for an ordinary film, but not really for an expensive precision product like this.
Is there anyone here, who used to handle Kodak or Fuji control strips and remembers what their shelf life was, typically? Perhaps it is normal have only a month or so to use them up?

Click to expand...

Reply from bhpv sounds like they are fine and eat well, no need to worry.

As I recall it is 1 year for Fuji. Don't they write that on the box?

@Serg Lavrenchuk have you contacted Kodak to ask about the ECN-2 control strip life expectancy? The data on the box will be readily cross-referenceable to the date of production. The only main reason for a relatively short timeframe between production and use that I can immediately think of would relate to latent image behaviour.

Serg Lavrenchuk said:

We are sure that results adjusted to ECN control strip aims wouldn't be met by the photo community as optimal/best.

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To me your wording on this is ambiguous. Do you mean the photo community would not consider the results as optimium, or could the photo community not achieve themselves such results?

Could you try explan your idea again?

To add insult to injury I can confirm as a former B&H employee that they do not refrigerate their warehouse film stocks. I think there may be coolers in the store for in-store purchases but if you're buying online, your film is kept at about 68-70F. I know because my office space was in the warehouse for my last year or so there, and I saw all the film shelves stored in the same conditions as regular items.

I remember when I was a student I got to tour the old Calumet super store in Chicago and I saw their large film fridge, it's a pity they closed up as who knows what happened to it.

ic-racer said:

A home made sensitometer will expose control strips. Maybe you don't understand how the control strip is used, but you would make your 'control' master strip with the process running at its optimum. All subsequent control strips would need to match your master. The sensitometer characteristics play almost no role in the process. Maybe you are confusing control strips with ISO testing facility?

Click to expand...

I understand. As long as the sensitometer is consistent I can monitor trends. An older Fuji C41 document has a few sample plots to that effect, only using their control strips. I do have C41 developer for which I'd like to know how good it is. I hope my control strips will help with that.

But in my mind I really had the latter definition for testing ISO. That was the most interesting aspect of a sensitometer. Knowing quantitatively how much film is exposed.

ic-racer said:

For $20 you can get a GREEN BLUE sensitometer to control those two colors and assume RED will fall in place if those two are correct. Otherwise you can spend more to get a white light version.

Click to expand...

That is not quite the price level I can find here, but I finally found at least some listings. Earlier searches for sensitometers didn't really yield anything. But I might have searched web only to see which devices are on the market here. I probably also ignored anything for x-ray dosimetry.

Those b/g sensitometers will, at the very least, be useful for exposing b/w films. Especially to see where my XTol is going as I started replenishing it now. As I said, I was going to use a strip of 35mm HP5 with a Stouffer stepwedge on top in a filmholder for my view camera. This is going to be much easier.

As fate has it there was one device on auction, which is also a densitometer. It had only 3h left and I was the only bidder and got it for €90 plus shipping. Looks very clean. BTW, a month ago I relented and finally bought a Heiland densitometer for €675... at least that will be supported for a long time to come.

I have been looking for used densitometers for a long time and never found anything that was both trustworty and decently priced. Now I've got two in one. Anyway, this one is a fairly modern device, looks great on paper (datasheet) and was widely used. It has five exposure levels, zero and +/- half and full stop. I also found it as part of larger instrument sets with phantombody and dosimeter. Seems a lot of those were in use with some federal agencies.

The green channel at 510nm isn't exactly a great match for the peak sensitivity of Vision3 at 550nm. That is quite far down on the shoulder. Will be an interesting experiment. And for C41 I can compare it to my control strips.

So thanks for pushing me over the edge! And thanks to Serg for starting this thread.

Lachlan Young said:

@Serg Lavrenchuk have you contacted Kodak to ask about the ECN-2 control strip life expectancy? The data on the box will be readily cross-referenceable to the date of production. The only main reason for a relatively short timeframe between production and use that I can immediately think of would relate to latent image behaviour.

Click to expand...

I didn't even think to contact Kodak, sorry. I saw "process before" and thought that is a due date.
Do you think they could mess with production and printed production date in the "process before" field?

AgX said:

To me your wording on this is ambiguous. Do you mean the photo community would not consider the results as optimium, or could the photo community not achieve themselves such results?
Could you try explan your idea again?

Click to expand...

Sorry if I was not easy to be understood. What I intended to explain: I think that original ECN development is lower in contrast than the usual c41 / bw we are used to (let is be 0.58 to 0.61).
As it seems to me ECN film should register a max scene range with lower than let say 0.60 contrast, as the original would be manipulated in contrast while making internegatives/positives.

We set up our development from the original time/temp and then tweaked so that color output and general contrast meet the optimum point to make final scans adored by the majority of lab personnel and clients.
From what we see from already processed strips aim is much lower in contrast than our present development.
At the moment I am not sure that going that low would help the final images to be appreciated by our clients (by photo community I meant our clients community).
But I may be wrong. That is why ECN-2 strips were ordered - to go there to see it.

ic-racer said:

For $20 you can get a GREEN BLUE sensitometer to control those two colors and assume RED will fall in place if those two are correct. Otherwise you can spend more to get a white light version.

Click to expand...

For BW that is perfect, especially if you need to test/tweek development for dozens of films for a few machines/developers.
Thanks for your advice in one post we got one day SL2 sensitometer and use it every day (some days all day long) rechecking bw development.

I don't think that this would be as sensitive as control strips for c41. Our practice shows that we were missing a trend of process and error working with sensitometer for c41 process.
Even general conductometer was giving us with better response to chemistry trend.
Sometimes even the pH meter was showing correctly the trend in developer but the sensitometer was making almost the same curve.

When we switched to control strips it gave IMHO an order better sensitivity and errors tracking.

I am sorry you received short dated control strips. Because you are a lab with client expectations at risk, may I suggest you get your process calibrated now in the upcoming week while the strips are still guaranteed.

Kodak may come through for you with fresher strips for your next calibration run but now, right now, those strips are good and your customers’ satisfaction is more important than a warranty dispute.

Home made sensitometers and x-ray sensitometers are a great boon for black and white home photographers. But a C-41 lab needs the real deal.

Serg Lavrenchuk said:

I think that original ECN development is lower in contrast than the usual c41 / bw we are used to (let is be 0.58 to 0.61).
As it seems to me ECN film should register a max scene range with lower than let say 0.60 contrast, as the original would be manipulated in contrast while making internegatives/positives.

We set up our development from the original time/temp and then tweaked so that color output and general contrast meet the optimum point to make final scans adored by the majority of lab personnel and clients.
From what we see from already processed strips aim is much lower in contrast than our present development.
At the moment I am not sure that going that low would help the final images to be appreciated by our clients (by photo community I meant our clients community).
But I may be wrong. That is why ECN-2 strips were ordered - to go there to see it.

Click to expand...

Now I am really confused...

The contrast ratio of the cinematography pairing Eastmannegative-film/Eastmanprint-film is different from that of our still-photography pairing C-41negative-film/RA-4paper .

You are now going to tweak the Eastman negative-film processing to yield results that your clients find pleasing for their scanning.
But that is not what the ECN process is intended for. Then why are you in need for precision ECN test-strips that you are using for a process intentionally tweaked by yourself?

Serg Lavrenchuk said:

I didn't even think to contact Kodak, sorry. I saw "process before" and thought that is a due date.
Do you think they could mess with production and printed production date in the "process before" field?

Click to expand...

The 'process before field' is usually relief stamped - probably to prevent accidental deletion etc. I imagine Kodak would be highly responsive to any communication about process control - though it's the cinema division, so I think you usually need to go through the relevant commercial dealer - as you purchased from the USA, you can probably contact Kodak directly. Given that most of these sort of products will normally be sold on a B2B basis to labs whose turnover is large enough to be dealing directly with the distributor, I'm not surprised that B&H's stock may have been sitting on the shelf for a long time.

Oh, and Kodak's ECN-2 process control strip manual describes them as consisting of '21 gray-scale steps at 0.20 log H increments' - Step 4 = HD, Step 8 = MD, Step 14= LD, Step 21= D Min. Given that they are on a tungsten balanced film, you could probably create a suitable sensitometer/ sensitometer setup quite readily.

As Lachlan mentioned, this is not a Kodak Alaris product. It is an Eastman Kodak product, and you may be able to buy it directly from them.

Serg Lavrenchuk said:

I think that Fuji makes control strips once a year in the beginning. Cause I bought maybe 4 packs already this year and they all were fresh for using "right now", but probably produced a 01.month. I need to recheck.
All of Fuji controls I got from BH and that is why I was actually LOL when opened a box of ECN strips on 01.2021. But I was mad getting that answer from bhpv.

Really, if a guy would even write me kidding that "we were trying to get in time with the present" or "sorry, we are in the same position dependent on our supplier..." or whatever human being could write to human being.
But they used this ctrl+c / ctrl+v approach (ignoring to reply by subj) and that is max insulting.

I have the same problem ordering Fuji Strips domestically through Fuji dealer. So I did that thought bhpv as decided that their turnover may grant hope for the fresh stock.
From our experience, Fuj strips bought over the year are about 0.02 D stable and that is actually the precision of our xite810.
I think it might work well for you frozen from the point of replenishment control.

BUT I didn't wish to start Kodak/Fuji C41 strips quality flame yet cause felt like I am already overlooked by forum members like fumes-over-the-fun thrower.
This outdated issue is not the worst thing you would force as soon as you opened c41 control strips pandora box.

Our testing of 4 different c41 chemistry brands in two parallel running processors and fresh Kodak and Fuji control strips advice that measured result would not have a connection with reality.
So they wouldn't help you measure your distance from the optimum process (except probably Y-bleach filed that works very logically). Only control the day-to-day behavior of your chemistry.

I think I need to start a new thread about what are these c41 Fuji and Kodak strips are trying to say us. I think I would need few days to sort through images and notes to make a post logically supported.

Click to expand...

Interesting to hear about your 'Journey'. Currently I have only that one source and they have only Fuji.

I see your point about the control strips. So basically some colour film in a white light sensitometer would be just as good? Only to see in which direction it is drifting. A thread about control stips would certainly be a useful reference here at Photrio. I'm sure more people will want to do this in future.

I don't have a colour densitometer, but I have the filters from a very old Kodak Model 1 (50s bakelite one, not the rebranded x-rite model) and use them with mine. I don't really know if those filters are Status-M, but my measurements from the reference strips seem to be in the area of some sample values in a Fuji documentation from 2007. I wouldn't do this if I was doing customer work, like you do, but it's the best I have for now. My goal is to have negatives that are RA4 printable.

We are a commercial photo lab. Not cine. This box was mostly needed to coordinate our ECN-2 development process and results with what was intended by Kodak.
Especially how should we deal with clients claiming that we are not doing things right. Right for the client is often as it was told to him by his fellow or another lab (often not processing ECN2 at all ), or some results he had with other processing.
We are sure that results adjusted to ECN control strip aims wouldn't be met by the photo community as optimal/best. But we need to test and have it as an argument in dialogue.

I would like to share some strips with you, no problems. Shipping to Germany (I suppose by your mention) might involve the risk of fogging, no way to exclude it 100%.
We could talk about how to pass the film to you in PM if you wish.

Click to expand...

I guess people believed the PR that Cinestill in C41 gives a 'cineastic look' (like eating a powdered tiger penis supposedly gives you manly strength) and now they are used to that look. But if you scan for your customers then you can adjust it to their expectations. After all this film is made to be malleable in post processing.

I just realised that I already had the answer to my question. I saw a notice from Fuji that something changed about their Control strips
Reply from bhpv sounds like they are fine and eat well, no need to worry.

As I recall it is 1 year for Fuji. Don't they write that on the box?

Click to expand...

I just realised that I already had the answer to my own question. I saw a notice from Fuji that something changed about their Control strips. Basically the new version doesn't have the Fujifilm logo at the top. The notice says that the new type is being delivered from April 2020 starting with Code NT01. My reference strip still has the logo and code number is NN91. At least 8 months old, and probably a year.

A long time ago I bought some short dated, discounted Velvia from that shop and in their descriptions they said that they store their stock professionally (temperature wise) and hence the short dated stuff is reliable. If they are trustworthy I'll expect them to store control strips as required by the manufacturer, otherwise to order on demand.

Here is the date and serial code from the box.

lantau said:

I guess people believed the PR that Cinestill in C41 gives a 'cineastic look' (like eating a powdered tiger penis supposedly gives you manly strength) and now they are used to that look. But if you scan for your customers then you can adjust it to their expectations. After all this film is made to be malleable in post processing.

Click to expand...

It always seems to stem from people not believing Portra 800 exists and/ or that labs that don't replenish properly can screw up the results from Portra 800.

Actually I also wonder why you would use ECN-2 to setup non-cine processes.

Or do you use C-41 strips for C-41 and these strips for times when people send you Cinestill film for processing?

When making one's own B&W or Color control strips, one is NOT comparing it to the "standard" developed control strip that comes in the box. You make your own "standard" and compare all subsequent strips to that one. The characteristics of the sensitometer do not affect the comparison of the strips as long as its exposure is consistent through time.

For example your C-41 process is running perfect. You expose C-41 film to your $20 blue and green sensitometer, either as separate patches or one-exposure-after-the-other on the same patch.

Process that strip in the "ideal" conditions and keep it for future reference. You record the yellow (blue) and magenta (green) densities of the strip with your color densitometer and record them for future reference, ignoring cyan.

Subsequently, you expose and run additional strips at a future time, to see if your process is still in its 'perfect' state. You compare your densitometer values with that first strip.

What are the chances cyan (red) goes out of control without affecting the other two? It only would take $20 to find out as these blue/green sensitometers are cheap and easy to come by.

Bill Burk said:

Actually I also wonder why you would use ECN-2 to setup non-cine processes.
Or do you use C-41 strips for C-41 and these strips for times when people send you Cinestill film for processing?

Click to expand...

No, we buy Vision in rolls and sell them to clients rolled in 36-frame cassettes. Then we process them in CD3 "original" formula developer (remjet-ing and finally hand cleaning the base from minor dots).
If the client wishes to process in c41/cd4 his Cinestill we do also. We do not advise to process ECN based film in CD4/c41 developer if that is not done intentionally to get shited/dull colors as a visual effect.

Made pictures today of some empty boxes with Fuji and actual Kodak c41 strips. Our Fuji from midyear was NM01 and two more are deep in the freezer so I couldn't dig them out.
Could you please send in PM or link here about Fuji notes?
I also rechecked Kodak c41 present strips. I think that they do not mistake at this point and put the process before in the right place.

Fuji strips that we have reference and aim values offset inside each box.
Each box has these aim values correction factors paper inside and each looks like one on the image = absolutely zero offsets.
I was used to the fact that if you add a document with a correction/filter pack/offsets inside every box it must be relevant for this exact box.

First I was thinking that Fuji came to the point of such a quality that could make strips of ideal quality (zero offsets).
But with practice, I came to fact that I is not possible to get the process into their reference strip with 00 correction factors. No way I tried.
Either you have lower HD-LD or too high Dmin. Also, one channel (red if I am right) always 0.04D lower than B and G.

We were fighting with this issue for a long time. But If you UP replenishment rate to keep up with the lowest limit of HD-LD let's say - 0.05/0.07D you hit Dmin upper limit and pH showing you are out of +0.05 to normal (each manufacturer uses different normal from 10.01 to 10.07) and the sensitometer strip shows you are under contract index over 0.61. But fuji strips a low... We tried to change the chemistry brand: Locally.made 23 and 45 to ->Kodak LORR to-> TetenalSP45 to finally -> Fuji Hunt C41 RA. We tried to change the pump in the machine thinking that it was possible under-circulation and even changed the machine. We couldn't cope with Fuji HD_LD vs Dmin. Even Fuji chemistry in the fuji processor showed the same -0.04D R channel HDLD under the other 2 channels. So it looked like ...

We ordered Kodak C41 controls (need to say that c41 controls were not so readily previous years before this boom with film came 2 years ago) when we saw that they were available just at bhpv.
Kodak corrections you could also see on the picture. They are way away from zero-zero. And they showed overdevelopment and ok Dmin in all chemistries.

We even had 2 machines running at the same time: one with Fuji c41 and one with Kodak c41. And cross-testing both with Fuji and Kodal control strips. Fuji showing under development about -0.07 in 2 channels and -0.11 in another (with Dmin already about the top of +0.04 to 0.05) and Kodak over-development about the same +0.07 to + 0.09 to HD-LD aim (what was fun that with Dmin about the ideal +0.01 in all channels).

...

So from all that information, I came to the idea that Fuji put zero correction not saying all the true about their emulsion (maybe if you use their Oasis service they would compare to the real emulsion data).