ECN-2 and C-41 image color differences

sweat100 · Mar 11, 2012

I recently gotten a tin of Vision 3 250D and 500T negatives. I read about the differences between the 2 processes from the colour developer and the rem-jet layer. May I ask if anyone had tried to process these film in both ECN-2 and C-41 to see what are the exact differences in color rendition from the same scene. The images I found on flickr are movie film developed in C-41, not ECN-2.

If there are real siginificant differences that cannot be corrected by scanning, I probably have to purchase ECN-2 chemicals (100L!) from Kodak since mixing them would be difficult due to chemical sourcing.

dehk · Mar 11, 2012

http://www.twinlenslife.com/2010/12/in-bleak-midwinter-new-kodak-portra400.html

sweat100 · Mar 11, 2012

Thanks for the link. I actually meant the same vision 3 film processed in both C-41 and ECN-2. Hope its clear this way.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 12, 2012

Dont ruin your tin of film with C41. These films are terrible with C41 , definite loss. This subject told in APUG and widely discussed and single solution for 35 mm photographers was to tape the 3 foot or longer film to cinema films end and develop with it at a professional film lab for cinema business. Cost was 10 dollar and I cant remember the labs name , this was the only lab which decides to help after long research.
Someone would post the labs name or search the APUG.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 12, 2012

Sweet100 , look to this thread. Dale Lab does the ecn 2 processing. You will get lower contrast as Photo Engineer told.
Wellcome to APUG.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 12, 2012

Someone writes :

Technicolor has a $50 minimum which we never meet. We've done 20-30 rolls for less than $50. We don't mess with the rem-jet anymore. Just let the lab do it. Look up The Camera Shop in St. Cloud, MN. The still process single rolls SFW (C-41) style.

Athiril · Mar 12, 2012

Remjet is not difficult to take off.

ECN-2 film last time I processed it in C-41 it came out absolutely unusable rubbish, I was using 5201 50D. Anyway, it looks good in ECN-2 chemistry (duh), also works well in split-bath applications.

As for remjet, if you agitate with an alkali prebath, you'll soften it and get some of it off, agitate it plenty, whatevers' left shouldn't budge during processing and can be removed at the end, don't forget to rinse several stops or stop and rinse to neutralise the pH again.

I've also not used a prebath and processed one shot before, I've read warnings about mishandling and getting remjet lodged into the emulsion, but this didn't seem to happen processing like this (logically if it did, it would also happen in the prebath), and wiping it off at the end still works fine, as there's none left in solution.

I squeegee it off with my thumb and finger with disposable nitrile gloves on into water, until it's completely clean with no more black coming off or in the water etc, which I wash one more time and stabilise the film from there.

Last time I ran it:

50D in ECN-2 test #1 by athiril, on Flickr

ECN-2 chemistry isn't expensive, it's a special order item via the catalogue via someone with a Kodak account. I managed to get it even over here.

sweat100 · Mar 12, 2012

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Dont ruin your tin of film with C41. These films are terrible with C41 , definite loss. This subject told in APUG and widely discussed and single solution for 35 mm photographers was to tape the 3 foot or longer film to cinema films end and develop with it at a professional film lab for cinema business. Cost was 10 dollar and I cant remember the labs name , this was the only lab which decides to help after long research.
Someone would post the labs name or search the APUG.

Thank you for the reply. There is a local lab here in Singapore that does ECN-2 processing, however given our short roll of 36 frames, it is not possible for him to do it. I suppose I will need to get ECN-2 chemicals myself as after reading the post C-41 is not the right chemicals at all. Alternatively, where can I get the CD-3 to mix the chemicals myself? I do not see it in adorama and freestyle photo.

sweat100 · Mar 12, 2012

Athiril said:
Remjet is not difficult to take off.

ECN-2 film last time I processed it in C-41 it came out absolutely unusable rubbish, I was using 5201 50D. Anyway, it looks good in ECN-2 chemistry (duh), also works well in split-bath applications.

As for remjet, if you agitate with an alkali prebath, you'll soften it and get some of it off, agitate it plenty, whatevers' left shouldn't budge during processing and can be removed at the end, don't forget to rinse several stops or stop and rinse to neutralise the pH again.

I've also not used a prebath and processed one shot before, I've read warnings about mishandling and getting remjet lodged into the emulsion, but this didn't seem to happen processing like this (logically if it did, it would also happen in the prebath), and wiping it off at the end still works fine, as there's none left in solution.

I squeegee it off with my thumb and finger with disposable nitrile gloves on into water, until it's completely clean with no more black coming off or in the water etc, which I wash one more time and stabilise the film from there.

ECN-2 chemistry isn't expensive, it's a special order item via the catalogue via someone with a Kodak account. I managed to get it even over here.

By the way, the ECN-2 chemicals you got are the minimum quantities that Kodak sells? If I did not recall wrong, it mixes up to 100L of working solution!

Athiril · Mar 12, 2012

sweat100 said:
By the way, the ECN-2 chemicals you got are the minimum quantities that Kodak sells? If I did not recall wrong, it mixes up to 100L of working solution!

Yep, part A of the developer is a 20L cubicontainer that is rather annoying to lift up high and pour a small amount into a small beaker. Also very heavy to carry home, lucky I had one of them courier trolleys and it took it on the tram and train.
Part B is manageable though (the developer part) and comes in 5L containers.

Here is a list of the Australian prices/catalogue, I paid a small premium on top, prob 10%-15% iirc, as the business special ordering it in for you gotta get their cut for their time as well.
Dead Link Removed

sweat100 · Mar 12, 2012

Thank you for the reply! ok, i have to be mentally prepared for such large quantities. By the way have you cross processed vision 3 film in C41 chemistry? Would like to see what difference in tonality and colour if you can post up a few pictures.
I actually did a one process for 250D in C41 using fuji chemicals. The colours looked rather muted which I attributed to the 0.5 gamma value. However, since the chemicals are not right thus I feel colours may be wrong too.

Athiril · Mar 12, 2012

I did 50D once in C-41, it wasn't useable, it wasn't simply low contrast or 'muted colours' etc, I just didn't get much of a picture out of it, I wrote off using C-41 with it after that, perhaps I messed up the C-41 processing that single time (I process C-41 usually daily).

ME Super · Mar 12, 2012

You can get CD-3 from Photographer's formulary. I think the web address is www.photoformulary.com.

Photo Engineer · Mar 12, 2012

The ECN processing kit is indeed huge, and in addition it does not keep very well once opened or mixed. It is not as stable as the C41 chemistry. The cross processing of ECN films in C41 chemistry will give very poor results compared to the correct process.

PE

sweat100 · Mar 12, 2012

Guess after I buy the chemicals, I should rebottle them to smaller bottles to prevent oxidation.

Below are some of the images taken on 250D and cross processed in C-41 Fuji chemistry. Scanned using V700 with epson scan software. I suppose these colours are too muted by compared to a ECN-2 development? Athiril, did you get similar colours like these? I hope photographers here can post some photos taken on Vision 3 film and developed in real ECN-2 process. Saw alot of discussion but very little pictures.

The following photo was taken with tungsten street lights. The non yellow/orange appearance makes me think that C41 process altered the colour balance since I used a daylight vision 3 film.

Athiril · Mar 12, 2012

Your results are excellent comparatively to what I got with 50D, there is no comparison, I got an unusable, unscannable, unprintable image riddled noise and artefacts due to how close the dMax and dMin were together.

Mixed developer is supposed to last 2 weeks in a floating lid cover according to the manual (vs 4 weeks for flexicolor), would imagine at least as long in sealed bottle with no air (mixed flexicolor is supposed to last 6 weeks in 'gas stoppered' bottles). It won't last this long 'out of the box' so to speak just by mixing it from kit parts like Flexicolor does iirc.

Keep part B topped up with an inert gas of some kind. I copied the first one, a slight balance change improves it.

In regards to your images, they are just slightly off balance.

You don't need the whole kit, usually just the developer.
All recipes are also in here inc developer - http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo...t_en_motion_support_processing_h247_h2407.pdf

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 12, 2012

I think your C41 developed vision film scans are not good , even terrible.

Write to Technicolor Labs and try to open an account. As someone wrote at first link in the thread , it would cost only few dollars to get a development in most technologically developed lab in the world.

If you keep taking this kind of pictures , dont blame the film and try to buy few ansel adams catalogs and find what can be the photograpic art.

Umut

Photo Engineer · Mar 12, 2012

The ECN developer contains no stabilizer, but the C41 developer does. This means a very short lifetime for the ECN developer! It can go bad in even stoppered bottles as the mixing process has entrained oxygen in the water. Watch out for it!

PE

Athiril · Mar 12, 2012

The ECN-2 developer uses sodium sulphite to protect against oxidation iirc, I've added HAS to it, and it didn't make a difference to the 'very short lifetime', there is another missing item for that.

hrst · Mar 12, 2012

I have tested ECN-2 developer aging twice. First time, it was fine after 6-8 months but totally dead after 12 months. Stored in full/squeezed PET bottles at room temperature (~23C). Second time, I stored it in an open container (deep tank) with some saran wrap on top. It was surely fine after a month. Didn't test it after that.

So, it SEEMS to last as well as C-41 developer at least for me, but I may have been lucky; better be safe than sorry.

Photo Engineer · Mar 12, 2012

C41 developer uses HAS and Sulfite to stabilize it against oxidation. The ECN developer has no HAS. In comparison tests, the ECN developer should have roughly 1/2 to 1/4th the stability wrt aerial oxidation. The developer concentrates should have the same lifetimes in either case.

The color developer part is packed under Sulfur Dioxide gas and if you don't believe me, give it the old sniff test when you open it. Once open, that gas is gone and the best you can do is use dry nitrogen to TRY to protect the developing agent. Once it turns coffee colored (either concentrate or working strength) then the developer is probably dead.

PE

sweat100 · Mar 13, 2012

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
I think your C41 developed vision film scans are not good , even terrible.

Write to Technicolor Labs and try to open an account. As someone wrote at first link in the thread , it would cost only few dollars to get a development in most technologically developed lab in the world.

If you keep taking this kind of pictures , dont blame the film and try to buy few ansel adams catalogs and find what can be the photograpic art.

Umut

Thank you for the advise, will write to them about it. Another issue is that I reside in Singapore, thus shipping 1-2 rolls may not be feasible.

As for the photographic content, they are not competent photographs artistically speaking. Pardon for that. I am showing to see how are the colours in relation to real ECN-2 process when I asked for more photos of real ECN-2 process.

sweat100 · Mar 13, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
C41 developer uses HAS and Sulfite to stabilize it against oxidation. The ECN developer has no HAS. In comparison tests, the ECN developer should have roughly 1/2 to 1/4th the stability wrt aerial oxidation. The developer concentrates should have the same lifetimes in either case.

The color developer part is packed under Sulfur Dioxide gas and if you don't believe me, give it the old sniff test when you open it. Once open, that gas is gone and the best you can do is use dry nitrogen to TRY to protect the developing agent. Once it turns coffee colored (either concentrate or working strength) then the developer is probably dead.

PE

By the way, what is the long form for HAS? I could not search the full term online. :confused:
I will rebottle the chemicals to smaller containers, however as you have mentioned, oxygen will get in nonetheless during the rebottling process. Assuming I rebottled it and used dry nitrogen to purge out the air from container, any indication how long will it last when it is unmixed (Part A and B separate) condition?

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 13, 2012

Sweat100 , if you read again , PE indicates oxygen in water.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 13, 2012

Sending 2 rolls to USA is not feasible but making 100 liters developer for 2 rolls is feasible. Great logic.

ECN-2 and C-41 image color differences

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