Ebony vs. Shen Hao?

At the risk of sounding foolish, has anyone out there tried, or at least examined, both the Ebony and the Shen Hao? I know the Ebony is lovely, but is it truly $1,000 more stable, etc. than the lighter camera?
Is it really the difference between driving a Mercedes and a Kia?

No, the Ebony is not $1000 more stable. There is a review of the Ebony RW45 on my website. Both are good cameras.

Without knowing more, I'd recommend getting a Shen Hao. Use it for awhile. Does it work for you? If so, then keep it. If you find limitations that you don't like, sell the Shen Hao and buy a more expensive camera. My guess is that you'd be happy with the Shen Hao.

Peter De Smidt
www.desmidt.net

Hi Steven,

I have looked at and shot both, and cannot really see 1000.00 difference in the two cameras, so much so, that I am just about ready to purchase a shen and spend the extra on lenses, but for my money the shen seems to be a good value with alot of features.

I am sure there are others with different opinions and will chime in.

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

I'll chime in, but not with a different opinion. I compared the two cameras as best I could a few years ago, and I bought the Shen-Hao. It is simply an amazing value. I've never had a bit of trouble with it locking down tight, and it has every movement that I'll ever need. It's not quite as pretty as the Ebony, but there was no way I could justify the price difference.

Rather than Mercedes vs. Kia, I'd say BMW 5-series vs. VW Passat. Both good machines, both handle well...the BMW's definately got better appointments and more performance, but in the end the Passat is more than good enough. (Take it from me...I drove both and bought the Passat. Do you sense a trend here?)

Sold the 4 wheeled Beemer, kept the 2 wheeled Beemer, the Toyota and the Shen Hao.

Mongo said:

I'll chime in, but not with a different opinion. I compared the two cameras as best I could a few years ago, and I bought the Shen-Hao. It is simply an amazing value. I've never had a bit of trouble with it locking down tight, and it has every movement that I'll ever need. It's not quite as pretty as the Ebony, but there was no way I could justify the price difference.

Rather than Mercedes vs. Kia, I'd say BMW 5-series vs. VW Passat. Both good machines, both handle well...the BMW's definately got better appointments and more performance, but in the end the Passat is more than good enough. (Take it from me...I drove both and bought the Passat. Do you sense a trend here?)

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Mongo, I might be going a similar route. My poor old Wista is falling apart, I have had the poor thing for almost 20 years, had to have the metal parts of the front standard welded together and it looks out of true.So was thinking of either a replacement Wista or a Shen-Hao. Leaning toward the Shen, but have a question about the brightness of the focus screen. The Wista has a great fresnel and gives a bright crisp image. So that could be the deciding factor - unless I can use either the Wista back or fresnel on the Shen-Hao.

Mike

Not up on specs.

I am not current with the specs of both camers but I thought that the Ebony would allow the useage of really extreme wideangle lenses that the Shen Hoa would not...35 thru 47 mm. I would certainly agree that a lot of people would never buy lenses this short but it could be important to some buyers.

Steven - I tried a Shen Hao, wasn't comfortable with it so went back to my old standard Tachihara field camera.

MikeK said:

So was thinking of either a replacement Wista or a Shen-Hao. Leaning toward the Shen, but have a question about the brightness of the focus screen.

Mike

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It's easy to replace a ground glass. I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor. My favorite is the Maxwell screen. I like it better than the others I've tried, such as the Beattie Intenscreen Plus, Linhof super screen, BosScreen, regular Sinar ground glass... I've not tried the Satin Snow screen, though.

Regarding the Shen Hao, the best way to decide is to get your hands on one. How one interacts with a camera is highly personal, which is why one shouldn't simply take another person's word for what is best. Consider the Linhof Technikardan: Some love it, some hate it, and both groups have some very accomplished photographers them.

Peter

Claire Senft said:

I am not current with the specs of both camers but I thought that the Ebony would allow the useage of really extreme wideangle lenses that the Shen Hoa would not...35 thru 47 mm. I would certainly agree that a lot of people would never buy lenses this short but it could be important to some buyers.

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I routinely use my 55mm Apo Grandagon on my Shen Hao, it focuses at infinity mounted on a standard flat lens board.

If and when I acquire a 47mm lens, I'll mount it on one of my old recessed Wista lens boards. I'll worry about mounting a 35mm lens if I happen to come across a real bargain.

BTW, I highly recommend the Satin Snow screen!

Ebony camera is a work of art in tradition of master craftsmen (see article in View Camera); but Shen-Hao is great knock-off of it. A pleasure to use and have ordered the Satin Snow screen for a brighter image. I think teak also is good wood for humid environments. When the choice is between owning a work of art or being able to afford to create works of art (hopefully), Shen-Hao is great choice.

MikeK said:

The Wista has a great fresnel and gives a bright crisp image. So that could be the deciding factor - unless I can use either the Wista back or fresnel on the Shen-Hao.

Mike

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Given the price of a Satin Snow ground glass, the quality of the image on the GG should no longer be a factor in anyone's decision when it comes to purchasing a camera. My Shen-Hao factory screen was fine (not as bright as some, but it never caused me any problems), but I moved up to a Satin Snow screen because they are so cheap and had gotten such rave reviews...and I'd put that screen up against anything on the market. For $9.95 + shipping, any 4x5 can have an image that's as bright as you could possibly want.

(Standard disclaimer: My only connection with Satin Snow is that of a satisfied customer.)

I've used a Shen Hao for about two years now and have no complaints whatsoever. My friend shoots an Ebony (can't remember the model # but it isn't the folder like my Shen Hao, it also cost 6X more than mine). Without a doubt, the Ebony is a very fine camera which is a pleasure to look at and use. Movements are silky smooth and controls are precise. That having been said, the Shen Hao gives about the same amount of movement, but is much less smooth to operate. The Ebony has an interesting bellows in that a bag bellows isn't always necessary with a wide lens as it has a front section without pleats to allow for more movement.

The same friend has owned his old Wista for 20 years and the Shen Hao beats it with respect to movements, features and versatility. He upgraded from the Wista when he went to a 400mm tele lens. The Shen Hao has both axis and center tilt on the rear standard, not the Wista. The Shen Hao can slide its back foreward on the body for wide lenses (no recessed lens board needed), but the Wista can't.

All in all, I like the Shen Hao. If I had money to burn or a lens I can't use with the 300mm bellows limit, perhaps I would buy an Ebony (and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its bum when it hops, but...). Too bad we can't get both, all the lenses we could ever need and then spend a few months deciding which to buy while shooting all the film necessary to decide. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, so buy the one you can afford and look at the lenses you need to go along with the type of shooting you enjoy.

For what its worth I'll add my few cents/pennies worth!

Without a doubt the Shen Hao cameras offer great value for money! (Ebony)They are well built, have plenty of available movements (Ebony) and make LF affordable! It is no surprise that they are blatant copies - but so what, (Ebony) if you are going to copy something then copy the best! However, LF is not all about whether the camera "does the job" (Ebony) but the whole "experience" for me anyway is important! If I wanted a simple photographic tool then I'd have a digital camera! (Ebony). I checked out a Shen Hao alongside the Ebony 45SW, after owning a SW for a few years! (Ebony) the Shen Hao was a great copy but was no where near in the same "league" as the Ebony (Ebony) - much like comparing a genuine Leica with a cheaper copy - both take pictures but which (Ebony) offers the most enjoyable "experience"? Is the Ebony worth the extra cash - in my opinion without question!! I'm using the 45SU and it is as close (Ebony) to an ideal camera as I am likely to get!

I hope my subliminal messages got through!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck with whichever camera you choose!

I feel that only you will be able to make the decision and ideally will need to see and handle both cameras. As Paul has just said, it is not just about raw spec, but the way in which these capabilities are met, the camera being a tactile tool. Whether these seeming compromises are worth the financial saving in your eyes will be different from the decisions made by others. Not sure on logistics but if you cannot get to a dealer, with your reputation/standing, might be able to negotiate a camera on approval?

I have owned two Ebony cameras and they have been a joy to own and use and am in no doubt that they are major factors in improving the standard of my picture taking enormously.

Of course, it is relatively easy to be a profligate spender with others' money. I found this out to my (great) expense! Joe Cornish encouraged me to spend an extra £1000 for an Ebony 45SU over the Ebony 45S saying that I would not regret it. I bit the bullit and got the SU. He was not wrong. I reasoned that should I buy the 'S' and subsequently decide that I did need the capabilities of the SU, trading up would then cost significantly more.

The main reason for the recommendation being the asymmetric movements on the rear standard. They are a revelation and so good that I seldom use the axis movements on the front standard.The extra extension enables a 300mm non-tele lens.

The focussing process is so much quicker. Place distant focus point on dotted etched line, tilt or swing so that near point comes in on the other dotted etched line, check focus which very occasionally needs slight tweak and that's it!

Another consideration might be the choice of a non-folding camera which is great for those like yourself and myself who shoot outdoors where often we need to set up very quickly and need a rigid design. Ebony offer 4 models RSW, SW, S and SU in order of movements and growing price.

They are far quicker to set up than traditional folding designs, which is especailly benficial in transient and fading light (GG is very bright). I leave my 90mm lens mounted. Assuming a simple shot with near horizontal or simple POF, I can place rucksack on ground, mount camera on tripod compose, and focus in well under two minutes and given sufficient adrenalin, could (and have) probably do in half this!

Of course the range and number of movements is extensive and offers masses of creative opportunities. Such images are not made in 120s or less!

If you did decide to change from 4x5, I would suggest that the return on your investment would be rather better and quicker for the Ebony than the Shen-Hao. When they do come on the market, they get snapped up rather rapidly.

Happy shopping.

Shen Hao makes a non-folding camera to. You'd have to order it direct. Supposedly that model is an exact copy of the Ebony which is why you have to order it direct.

For the price difference between the "basic" Ebony and the Shen hao you could almost get the Shen Hao 4x5 and the 5x7 camera. Then you could use the 4x5 when you need really wide lenses. Use the 5x7 witht he 4x5 back when you need more extension. For not much more money you could even add bag bellows to both cameras.

I have handled (or fondled?) an Ebony - a RSW45 I think it was. I haven't handled a Shen-Hao.

So I'm not really qualified to say, but on the whole I'd rather have a Gandolfi... A Gandolfi traditional 8x10 costs almost as much as an Ebony, for some reason the Variants are much cheaper. I'm pretty sure my next LF camera will be a BIG Variant...

I prefer the Canham products over the Ebony (have handled both). Feels more solid to me and being metal I wasn't as "ginger" with it. With my Anba or others Shen-hao's I'm afraid I'll scratch the finish. I also like the knobs, and positive locks, better on the canham. For the price, shenhao is a fine product. but if you can afford luxury, the engineering of the ebony and canham's are desirable.

My brand-new Shen-Hao 4x5 came with FedEx a couple of hours ago

Oh-la-la I like it! Incredible value at $485.... Intuitive to use,as I was just outside exposing a couple of sheets TMX without any trouble. And I have never handled another fieldcamera before.....
It will suit my needs for years to come....


It seems that they improve them all the time, all knobs are now captive, no loctite nescessary...

Ole , you're right ... you do fondle an Ebony!! (Seriously)Thankfully we are all individuals! To some the "experience" of the LF process is important, for others they will (happily) use anything they can get their hands on - neither is "correct". LF, as many other "interests" usually boils down to one thing - cost! If you can afford to invest in an Ebony then go ahead, if not, then buy the best you can afford - but most important of all is to enjoy taking pictures. A friend of mine swears by his old MPP outfit - he can afford a Linhof (new to boot!) but is so attached and comfortable with his existing (cheap?) gear that he doesn't see any point! And he takes some excellent pictures too! Every so often the Ebony vs brand X debate raises its head and thankfully those who pursue LF don't appear to have the "brand snobbery" of other (smaller) formats! Sure, we'd all like the "best" but the beauty of LF is that gear that is a century old is still producing superb results and we all recognise this! To conclude, this is proof that LF is still the most pure form of photography!!!! P.S. Ole, Gandolfi vs Ebony - no competition ... got to be Ebony

Well for my money, the lens get the majority of it all the time, as long as I can accomplish the goal with the camera in hand, I am happy..

Good Shooting all

Dave

Hi,
Consider the Walker. I received a my 4x5 Titan FS about 3 weeks ago. The camera is made of ABS and is incredibly rigid, draws my Fuji450c, my Nikon 360/500T and draws my Nikon 720T with a tilt. The camera is fit and finished extremely well, well enough that it makes the ABS very attractive. I feel it is finished better than my Ebony..Evan Clarke

Baxter Bradford said:

The main reason for the recommendation being the asymmetric movements on the rear standard. They are a revelation and so good that I seldom use the axis movements on the front standard.The extra extension enables a 300mm non-tele lens.

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One of the reasons I like my Toyo 45AII. I has Rear Tilt (my most often used movement), Rear Swing and a rear extension for macro of long lens work. The camera's full 324mm extension allows use of 150mm lenses for 1:1 life size macro work, or wide angle lenses for greater than 2x lifesize. Weight is: 6.2 lbs. Longest Lens with maximum bellows draw: 300mm / 400T.

Steven Nestler
Having started the thread to answer your dilemma, got a good response with everyone taking the time to consider and then write their opinions and advice, I am disappointed to see that you have made no further contribution. I feel that it would be polite to have made some form of positive follow up.

So Steven, your thoughts so far ?