Ebay fees hit 10% Where do people buy their large format equipment

Wildtypitch, you're in the UK and this is eBay.co.UK we're talking about?

I'm in the US and still find the occasional incredibly rare bargain on ebay.com (along with the beat-up junk with BIN prices where sellers must be smoking dope).

It's probably a better experience nowadays as a buyer than seller, for the most part, except on items where scarcity or trendiness drives the auction price higher than any sensible party would bid. And these are the items that truly boggle the mind. for instance I can't seem to find any Grafmatics lately for a price I'm willing to spend. I saw one go for $190 recently.

But then, I did find an amazing Meridian 45CE (technical field camera) prototype-- quite possibly the only one of it's kind in the world yet in existence!-- a couple of weeks ago, that's easily worth at least twice my winning bid and perhaps a great deal more.

I'm not a salesman for ebid, it just seems to be the best thing to rival it. Take into account that Ebay are making 10% of every sale, thats 10% of everything on ebay! plus paypals cut if used Obviously I hope that loads of people move over to another operator giving the ebay a reason to care about customer service and be competitive. In any other field ebay would be cut down by laws of monopoly and consumer rights.

Chrism
Paypal charges 3.4% + £0.20 GBP transfers take a week they also demand you become a business member if you want to accept paypal credit card. also they cream a couple of percent if you transfer currencies.

Ebay fees see here http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/fees.html state 10% on all sales over £0.01
Ebay also state that you must offer paypal and ban you and remove your item if you offer any other service like ppay, nochex, etc, etc.... see where this is going?
Also ebay.co.uk insist that you offer fee shipping on all items

The policies have been introduced this year and from my brief look at usa ebay their price remain at a tiered fee scale beginning at 8.75% getting cheaper for high priced items. I guess a new price structure will hit the usa soon.

pupfish yes i'm i the uk but also China, I buy from anywhere in the globe
Just bought a grafmatic with 9 septums for $72 usa ebay good cond, you missed that one I guess unlucky. I have no problems buying from ebay just selling as a small timer.

Now a REAL EBAY RANT

It's noticeable that there's still no credible alternative to Ebay, I do still buy smaller items, books, equipment that's rarer in the UK/US. I buy across Ebay, the .com, .co.uk and the .de and once .it as not everything maps across properly from one Ebay portal to another on international searches.

The OP seems to be more interested in selling than buying, and I've ben looking closely at UK sales particularly as around 3 maybe 4 Ebay Stores seem to be rather pre-dominant with heavily inflated prices particularly of Medium Format and even more so Large Format equipment.

Typically 90mm f6.8 Angulon's are being sold (or rather offered for sale with a "Buy It Now price") for 2-3 times the usual average final auction price of a sale on Ebay, and also the prices of reputable traditional dealers. This is just the most obvious example but there are plenty of others, $600-$700 (US) Speed & Crown Graphics are another, then Xenar's, Symmar's etc it's always the same.

It's like a cartel, all these UK Ebay stores are I think linked through the UK Camera fair circuit, I'm collecting data for a journalist who is digging far deeper Essentially what they do is list and re-list the same items so many times in the hope that people assume those are the going rates for the items, then they list a bit cheaper and hpoe people will buy, still way over the market price. They've effectively killed private sales on Ebay in the UK. in the past 18 months.

The good UK dealers who also have an Ebay store tend not to have many items listed with a "Buy It Now" prices and when they do have fairly priced items, whether on Ebay or in their High Street shops or own websites.

I complained to Ebay about this last year and had no response to my specific questions, I did get a personal acknowledgement though.

To be credible I need to give examples:

90mm f6.8 Angulon's are being listed on Ebay.co.uk for between £230-£260 "Buy It Now" The average Ebay Auction price is £80-£100, and isn't far different to the US where a nice one sold for $153.50 a couple of days ago.

A reputable UK seller and sometimes APUG advertiser MW Classics sells them for around £150 maximum same condition etc and is probably open to haggling, that's from his store & will have a limited warranty. MW Classic also list & sell them on Ebay with NO RESERVE so they know exactly what they fetch at market prices. I'm not writing about shops and dealers making a fair living, they have to make a profit, & when they sell outside Ebay they usually offer a warranty - it'll be 3-6 months usually. What I'm saying is a small number of people are trying to rip us off via Ebay in the UK, and that really means the less knowledgeable are the most vulnerable.

I'll finish my rant against Ebay by saying one UK Ebay store had over 1300 items with very few selling last week, on another the same Eurynar lens has been listed & re-listed now for at least 15 months

There are a lot of very good & fair Trade sellers in the UK using Ebay, the Real Camera Company (Manchester), Vintage & Classic Camera Co, MW Classic's and many many more but it's the very small number who swamp Ebay that are the problem.

You know who you are you read APUG !!!!!!!!!!

Ian

Any sales from any source can be a source of frustration -- and it is that damn rotten apple that spoil the barrel. I bought a 5x7 camera in "good" condition from a LF Forum member (who also had a GG business) at what seemed a pretty good price (for both of us), but when it arrived it was obviously from a home of a heavy smoker. I set it up in the garage to air out for a few months...it was nasty to even handle.

Then when I went to actually use it, the gearing on the bed was very marginal and the back unusable. Disappointing and frustrating. But a half-year had past and I had not asked the proper questions about the camera, so I wrote it off as a learning experience (and a future learning experience in camera restoration). But if he was still in business, I would not buy any GG from him.

It is painful to see the same model camera, but in much much better condition, going for less than half of the price on eBay that I paid.

Vaughn

Ian Grant said:

It's like a cartel, all these UK Ebay stores are I think linked through the UK Camera fair circuit, I'm collecting data for a journalist who is digging far deeper Essentially what they do is list and re-list the same items so many times in the hope that people assume those are the going rates for the items, then they list a bit cheaper and hpoe people will buy, still way over the market price. They've effectively killed private sales on Ebay in the UK. in the past 18 months.

The good UK dealers who also have an Ebay store tend not to have many items listed with a "Buy It Now" prices and when they do have fairly priced items, whether on Ebay or in their High Street shops or own websites.

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I agree, I've also noticed that in Germany they have many of the same issues ridiculously priced items and a complete barrage of them so it makes searching tiresome.

wildtypitch said:

I agree, I've also noticed that in Germany they have many of the same issues ridiculously priced items and a complete barrage of them so it makes searching tiresome.

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Not really noticed a German problem. Post examples please.

I buy off a couple of German stores which post prolifically, and you could say dominate, but the prices are always fair & reasonable. That's the HUGE difference.

Ian

Vaughn said:

Any sales from any source can be a source of frustration -- and it is that damn rotten apple that spoil the barrel. I bought a 5x7 camera in "good" condition from a LF Forum member (who also had a GG business) at what seemed a pretty good price (for both of us), but when it arrived it was obviously from a home of a heavy smoker. I set it up in the garage to air out for a few months...it was nasty to even handle.

Then when I went to actually use it, the gearing on the bed was very marginal and the back unusable. Disappointing and frustrating. But a half-year had past and I had not asked the proper questions about the camera, so I wrote it off as a learning experience (and a future learning experience in camera restoration). But if he was still in business, I would not buy any GG from him.

It is painful to see the same model camera, but in much much better condition, going for less than half of the price on eBay that I paid.

Vaughn

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i know what you mean vaughn ..
questions are always key, but sometimes
even after the questions are asked and answered
things are not always what they appear to be ..

sorry for your situation

john

Ebay's fee schedule is a little complicated:

Ebay site said:

8.75% of the initial $25.00 ($2.19), plus 3.50% of the initial $25.01 - $1,000.00 ($34.12), plus 1.50% of the remaining closing value balance($1000.01 - closing value

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Recently I sold a camera for $400. My fees were $28.75 (7%), which I find fairly reasonable. Add Paypal fees for a total of 10%. I don't think that's bad considering these services offer various protections and I was able to find a buyer within two days.

That said, I'm not a dealer trying to turn a profit. Just selling a camera I didn't use much anymore.

As far as selling goes, I'm not really in it to make a profit. I buy things, and if something better comes along, I might sell something I no longer need or sell one item to finance another. In most cases of selling a used item that I've bought, I'm hoping to break even, and that's usually what happens, plus or minus a little here, a little there. I've never had a very significant loss, but I've had a few significant profits.

When I do make a profit, it is usually because I bought something that was poorly described, but that I felt was a fairly safe risk based on my own experience with similar items, and I sold it with a better description and better photographs than the original seller used. In these cases, the fees have been insignificant in relation to the profit realized by knowing what I was buying and being able to describe the item accurately and in detail with good photographs or even an audio recording in the case of a musical instrument.

Ian Grant said:

Not really noticed a German problem. Post examples please.

Ian

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Have a look at team-foto shop on German ebay they have some nice lenses good condition but priced as new.
190336403658 Fuji Fujinon SW 8,0 / 125: 700 euro
220472709284 Schneider Apo-Symmar 5.6 / 180: EUR 809,00
310164776618 Rodenstock Grandagon N 4.5 / 90 : EUR 1.049,00

other sellers
390087537744 210mm F8 SUPER-ANGULON: EUR 1.745,00

190336403658 Schneider Kreuznach APO SYMMAR 5.6/240, Prontor 3: 750 EURO

350255850424 RODENSTOCK APO-SIRONAR-N 5,6/210 : EUR 499,00

Some of these are ridiculous prices that for sure will not sell some are not so bad but still priced out of the market. I remember German ebay being worse as I used to buy lots from there but you are right they do have good seller too, more than the uk.

wildtypitch said:

Have a look at team-foto shop on German ebay they have some nice lenses good condition but priced as new.
190336403658 Fuji Fujinon SW 8,0 / 125: 700 euro
220472709284 Schneider Apo-Symmar 5.6 / 180: EUR 809,00
310164776618 Rodenstock Grandagon N 4.5 / 90 : EUR 1.049,00

other sellers
390087537744 210mm F8 SUPER-ANGULON: EUR 1.745,00

190336403658 Schneider Kreuznach APO SYMMAR 5.6/240, Prontor 3: 750 EURO

350255850424 RODENSTOCK APO-SIRONAR-N 5,6/210 : EUR 499,00

Some of these are ridiculous prices that for sure will not sell some are not so bad but still priced out of the market. I remember German ebay being worse as I used to buy lots from there but you are right they do have good seller too, more than the uk.

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Nobody puts a gun to your head and makes you bid. It's your equipment until it sells. Ask what you want. You might get lucky and get some dumb schmuck to bite. I mean, look at EBay seller Camera$. Why the heck anyone would buy from him is beyond my comprehension, but he is entitled to ask what he wants for his stuff.

I haven't used Ebay for quite awhile. It's not any fun anymore, there are fewer bargains, I have enough 'stuff', and the personal relationships you use to be able to foster with a seller are gone. Now it's bid, win, pay, receive (if you are lucky), post feedback, look to see if the seller bothered to post feedback for you. I would buy off APUG first, KEH second, craigslist third.

If I needed anything.

tim in san jose

k_jupiter said:

I haven't used Ebay for quite awhile. It's not any fun anymore, there are fewer bargains, I have enough 'stuff', and

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I echo those same feelings!

In fact, after 30 years of using primarily used equipment (from Shutterbug ads, then e-bay) my last few purchases have been NEW equipment!

I quit feeBay years ago... and Pay-thru-ur-nose-Pal. Just like any other monster companies they are absolute control freaks driven soley by greed. I would rather sell at a lower price on the forums and pass the savings to fellow members. IMO, feeBay and PayPal RUINED the market for anyone with a conscience and sense of fair trade.

k_jupiter said:

I mean, look at EBay seller Camera$. Why the heck anyone would buy from him is beyond my comprehension, but he is entitled to ask what he wants for his stuff.

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He's sold over a number of different aliases over the years, "cafedeparis," "emmanuelle," and a few others. His pattern is to put things up at a high price and slowly drop the price until someone buys them. His descriptions tend to be exaggerated. As long as you are aware of that, you can sometimes find interesting items at reasonable prices from him. You just have to be patient, assume that the item isn't as good as he says it is (and if it is consider it a bonus), and be disciplined about the price you are willing to pay. I've bought a couple of lenses from him and have no regrets.

David A. Goldfarb said:

As far as selling goes, I'm not really in it to make a profit. I buy things, and if something better comes along, I might sell something I no longer need or sell one item to finance another. In most cases of selling a used item that I've bought, I'm hoping to break even, and that's usually what happens, plus or minus a little here, a little there. I've never had a very significant loss, but I've had a few significant profits.

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I agree totally with this.
Greed is certainly rampant today, and eBay/PayPal are as bad as anybody. But, on the whole, I reckon the only little people who feel badly hurt are those who are trying to use eBay as some kind of business platform themselves. If all private sellers like you and me had a bit of patience and used eBay as an effective way of getting rid of things we no longer want and getting hold of things we do want (and ignoring the various opportunists running eBay stores), it would work fine for us. eBay would continue to gouge its fees and get bigger and bigger, but it wouldn't hurt us too badly. It is when we always expect a profit on a sale or a bargain on a buy that we feel aggrieved. The big corporates are not the only ones guilty of greed these days...

I've been hearing that Google is about to enter the auction business.

Could be interesting.

For some time I have been troubled by eBay / PayPal policies, particularly in relation to transferring funds from PayPal to operating bank account(s); this incurs some nasty fees. I agree that photographic equipment on eBay is often over-priced, moreso if it is being sold ex-Hong Kong (which attracts the upright attention of Customs ensuring GST is added on, rather than evaded).

Mostly I scout well-respected second hand pro-dealer windows or stock for something I am after (of the two regularly visit, I've known them for more than 30 years). This manual door-to-door footwork gives me hands-on, touchy-feely feedback about what qualities I am looking for, condition, operational integrity, etc., and I can go back as often as I want for further deliberation. This can't be done on eBay, as you know, and that is where the risk is. I haven't been bitten on eBay (yet!) as I suss the seller out; you do have to be very careful, but the much bigger problem is fees and charges.

wildtypitch said:

Have a look at team-foto shop on German ebay they have some nice lenses good condition but priced as new.
190336403658 Fuji Fujinon SW 8,0 / 125: 700 euro
220472709284 Schneider Apo-Symmar 5.6 / 180: EUR 809,00
310164776618 Rodenstock Grandagon N 4.5 / 90 : EUR 1.049,00

other sellers
390087537744 210mm F8 SUPER-ANGULON: EUR 1.745,00

190336403658 Schneider Kreuznach APO SYMMAR 5.6/240, Prontor 3: 750 EURO

350255850424 RODENSTOCK APO-SIRONAR-N 5,6/210 : EUR 499,00

Some of these are ridiculous prices that for sure will not sell some are not so bad but still priced out of the market. I remember German ebay being worse as I used to buy lots from there but you are right they do have good seller too, more than the uk.

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Ok point taken, add Photo Arsenal to the list as well. I don't search the German site that thoroughly, I find it more difficult as I can't speak German

What I object to is a few less than reputable dealers trying to flood Ebay with grossly over priced items and attempting to make those prices seem the norm. By flood, I mean they often have over a 1000 items listed at any one time, in the UK one has around 1300+, the German seller you highlighted has 2700+ items.

As others have pointed out we don't have to buy from them, but that overlooks the facts that novices to Medium/Large format and first time film users are usually clueless as to fair market prices, these are the people who gt caught out.

Ian

Yeah, there are a couple of German dealers and a couple of Hong Kong dealers that post a ton of Hasselblad items that are 50% to 70% higher than all of the completed items for the same item. Just stupid.

Ian Grant said:

Not really noticed a German problem. Post examples please.

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There is a group of sellers in Nuremberg, all sharing the same address, which are infamous for their ridiculous pricing. They have the habit to issue large amounts of buy-it-now items at once. It is annoying to have to scroll through their offers first to find what you are looking for.

Ulrich

wildtypitch said:

Some of these are ridiculous prices that for sure will not sell some are not so bad but still priced out of the market.

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There is a difference between private and commercial sellers in Germany. Commercial sellers underly the regulations of the Fernabsatz Gesetz. This gives private buyers extensive rights which must be accounted for. Thus commercial sellers always sell higher than the average ebay auction prices.

Ulrich

David A. Goldfarb said:

There are also the APUG classifieds, of course, and the classifieds on lfphoto.info in the q&a forum (LF forum).

To post a classified ad on APUG, you need to be a subscriber, and to post in the classifieds forum on the LF forum, you need to be a member for at least 30 days, but you can browse and purchase from the classifieds on either forum as a new member.

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Actually you cannot access the classifieds on the LF forum site, even to read the ads for at least 30 days.

Ulrich Drolshagen said:

There is a group of sellers in Nuremberg, all sharing the same address, which are infamous for their ridiculous pricing. They have the habit to issue large amounts of buy-it-now items at once. It is annoying to have to scroll through their offers first to find what you are looking for.

Ulrich

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david b said:

Yeah, there are a couple of German dealers and a couple of Hong Kong dealers that post a ton of Hasselblad items that are 50% to 70% higher than all of the completed items for the same item. Just stupid.

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There's the "Hollywood" seller to.

Perhaps what we should really be doing is exposing all these seller, rather than just the UK ones.

Ian

k_jupiter said:

....get some dumb schmuck to bite. I mean, look at EBay seller Camera$. Why the heck anyone would buy from him is beyond my comprehension....

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ha!!!!!!!!!! Oh man you are so right. Every so often, of course I have to be completely bored and nothing to do, I peruse his listings and find the ones where he says things like "totally gorgeous" and things like that and it looks like someone kicked it down a flight of stairs and it skidded down a street of sandpaper, and I ask him "Pardon me but I don't quite see what you mean about totally gorgeous. This thing looks like a heap of junk to me! Did you pick this up from the site of a crashed airplane or something?" hahahahahahahha, talk about therapy, that is good for the soul to have a hearty laugh like that. Anyway, I have only gotten one response from him ever. And I've sent like 20 or 30 "ask seller a question".