Early panchro films: more like Efke 25 or Efke 100?

[Captain_joe6]

Much as the title says, I'm wondering wether early 'panchromatic' films were truly panchromatic, having what we now call 'normal' red sensativity, or if they were orthopanchromatic, having only limited red sensativity. It would make sense to me that they were the latter, and that red sensativity increased over the years with technological advances.

The reason I ask is because I want to produce a series of photographs that have a distinctly early-20th century look to them, somewhat in the vein of Edward Weston, Edward Steichen, and Alfred Stieglitz. I'm tempted to go with something from Efke's lineup, partly because of the vintage of the emulsion formulas, partly price, and partly because the one roll of KB25 I shot seemed decent enough to warrant further experimentation. I'll be shooting 8x10 and developing in a pyro developer of some sort, so obviously if you've got any suggestions for films, they've got to be available in that size and compatible with staining developers. So, before I go spending the bucks on a box of film, tell me: which film(s) and developer(s) should I be looking at?

Thanks all,
Patrick

 

[fschifano]

Using a blue, 80A or 80B, over the lens will deliver an ortho look to a panchromatically sensitized B&W film. These are normally used to balance daylight film with tungsten lamps by removing some of the red from the available spectrum. The 80A is a little stronger than the 80B, but neither delivers a dramatic effect. One of these filters may be just the thing to emulate the reduced red sensitivity of EFKE films. Alternately, a 47B filter will block all red light, allowing only green and blue to pass, giving the look of a completely red blind film.

Needless to say, experimenting with an emulsion that is available in 8x10 and rollfilm formats will be far less expensive than shelling out for a box of 8x10.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Much as the title says, I'm wondering wether early 'panchromatic' films were truly panchromatic, having what we now call 'normal' red sensativity, or if they were orthopanchromatic, having only limited red sensativity. It would make sense to me that they were the latter, and that red sensativity increased over the years with technological advances.

The reason I ask is because I want to produce a series of photographs that have a distinctly early-20th century look to them, somewhat in the vein of Edward Weston, Edward Steichen, and Alfred Stieglitz. I'm tempted to go with something from Efke's lineup, partly because of the vintage of the emulsion formulas, partly price, and partly because the one roll of KB25 I shot seemed decent enough to warrant further experimentation. I'll be shooting 8x10 and developing in a pyro developer of some sort, so obviously if you've got any suggestions for films, they've got to be available in that size and compatible with staining developers. So, before I go spending the bucks on a box of film, tell me: which film(s) and developer(s) should I be looking at?

Thanks all,
Patrick

Patrick, both Efke 25 and Efke 100 work very well in the Pyrocat series of developers (Pyrocat-HD, Pyrocat-P and Pyrocat-MC) . I shoot 8x10 and I do my testing with Efke 25 and Efke 100 rollfilm (35mm and 120).

 

[rhphoto]

One other factor to consider is the curve of slow vs fast films. I'm pretty sure that the film E Weston was using then was around ASA 25 or even slower. I haven't used the Efke films, but when I used to shoot Agfa, I found the toe on the Agfapan 25 to be much more abrupt than the Agfapan 100. So in emulating that look, I would think the slower the film the better.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I believe the early panchromatic films were introduced c1930. I have used Rollei Ortho for an earlier look.At www.adox.de in German,sorry I cannot translate,the spectral sensitivity curves for Adox CHS 25, 50 and for 100 are different.It may read CHS 100 is similar to films of the 1950's. Efke is similar to Adox. IDK if that is the same as early panchromatic.

 

[dpurdy]

Good luck making your work look like Edward Weston, Edward Steichen, and Alfred Stieglitz!!! I don't think film choice is going to do much for you.

Dennis

 

[KOG]

I've used Efke 50 (4x5 and 35mm) before and think Efke 25 and Efke 50 would be the most similar to the old films. However, there is more to it then film choice alone, as using Efke 50 with modern equipment does not come close to looking like a photograph from the early 1900's.

From the actual prints I've seen of Edward Weston and Alfred Stieglitz, I'd say there are too many dissimilarities to generalize a common look. I think you really need to closely define what exactly you are trying to accomplish. In my personal opinion, I found the prints from the above mentioned photographers to be small, grainy, and in some cases not very sharp.

To mimic an early 20th Century look, you need to look at every part of the photographic process from camera lenses through print presentation. From my non-scholarly research I think the key to get a similar look is to concentrate on the "atmosphere" of the photograph. By that I mean, there seems to be a certain "haze" to most of the old photographs. I think this was to do with the more blue sensitive emulsions, uncoated and less sharp (at working apeture) lenses, camera shake, and the possibility of smoke filled rooms in some portraits from that time period. Even a portrait setter's attitude might contribute to the look.

Have you seen the actual prints from Edward Weston, Edward Steichen, and Alfred Stieglitz that you are using for reference? If so, what's the exact look you're trying to achieve? Can you describe the look?

Kevin

 

[PHOTOTONE]

The photographers you mentioned above worked in a time just slightly before panchromatic films came into general use (at least in the earlier parts of their careers), and therefore you would need to create an orthochromatic look to your negatives, in addition to using vintage lenses, and styles.

 

[Captain_joe6]

Well, it seems that Portland Dennis is wanting to be a Sullen Susan. I don't know whether to give him a winking smily or not. Ok:

Beyond that, I believe that I should reveal a bit more of my goals. As for equipment, how does an 8x10 camera with a circa-1912 lens sound? It's what I've got, and I'm wanting to make the best use of it that I personally can imagine. I'm not attempting to rip off Weston, Steiglitz and Steichen's ideas, merely their technical circumstances. I've seen Weston originals and have been looking for some Stieglitzes, and of Weston's mountain of work, most of my favorites fall durring the Mexico years, the late teens and early 1920s. I love the look of very subtle highlights, not a whole super lot of mid tones, and very deep, soul-sucking shadows and blacks. That's the technical look I'm going for, and I'm wanting to use a slow film, because my shutter isn't very dependable on anything except bulb and time. I'm planning on a staining developer and a lot of hours in the darkroom to perfect everything. I'd just like to start as close to ideal as possible.

Now, what's throwing me about the notion that panchomatic films became available on a fairly wide basis in the 1930s is that in the Mexico portion of the daybooks Weston refers to his 'panchro' films. Any chance somebody could have been labelling orthopanchromatic films as fully panchromatic?

 

[Alan Johnson]

'Hollywood Portraits' by Roger Hicks & Christopher Nisperos gives some mention of film including the introduction of panchromatic film c1930.
Earlier panchro film appears to have been not fully panchromatic,see eg the entry for panchromatic here:
http://www.photoline.ru/photoworld/category/glossary/?pg=2

 

[nawagi]

Shoot paper negs...

I would experiment using single weight non-watermarked printing paper (grade 4). Unless you want to learn the art of French Calotype negatives, it will give you the soft pictorial feel of turn-of-the-century Stieglitz et. al.

NWG

 

[PHOTOTONE]

You would be more likely to get images that resemble the old master photographers in the first couple of decades of the 20th century, if you use Ortho film, rather than modern pancromatic film, as the pre-1930 "pancro" films were much more "ortho" in their rendition of tones. In other words, not really pancromatic as we have become accustomed to now, but rather orthocromatic with a teeny bit of extension into the green.

 

[Anscojohn]

Edward Weston: Agfa Isopan, Pyro, contact prints on bromide paper, developed in Amidol.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

Edward Weston: Agfa Isopan, Pyro, contact prints on bromide paper, developed in Amidol.

Yeah, well, certainly that is one combination he used. Probably not from the start though.

 

[rhphoto]

Ansel Adams said something to the effect of "much of the great work of Stieglitz and Weston were printed on commercial silver chloride papers." In this case, we are talking Azo most likely. And no doubt even if you had Azo manufactured sometime in the last ten years, it might be quite different from silver chloride papers of 1920. Really early Westons would have been on platinum or chloride. Early Stieglitz on platinum. Later both of them used bromide papers.

I've printed on Kodak Medalist paper from around 1975, and it was so different than any paper you could get in 2000. I once found a box of Polycontrast in a photo store, dated back to the early 60s. Remarkably different. Evidently Weston was using Gevaert bromide matte surface in the 20s and then switched to Velour Black glossy in the 30s. All this to say that paper has changed so much in the last 80 years that it will be pretty hard to find a combination that mimics the look of those old prints.

In the end, the most important thing, IMO, you can do to get close is to work with the curves of your negative material and your paper. You can pretty much zero in on a slow (asa 25 or slower if it is available) film, panchromatic with a blue filter perhaps, and the staining developer. Amidol makes the most sense for a paper developer. That leaves you with a paper choice. And then play play play.

 

[Captain_joe6]

I'm liking where this is heading. At this point, I'm thinking I'm going to start my testing pretty basic, somewhat crude, and as dirt cheap as possible. To me, that means a box of Efke 25, a blue filter to experiment with, some Slavich bromide paper, and boxes of ABC Pyro and Ansco 130 from Photo Formulary. Amidol can wait, it's just too damn expensive for me right now, especially considering the amount I just dropped on a secondhand Gitzo studio tripod to cradle my hefty Calumet. Until the next few paychecks come down the line (at least until the new year), more expensive options (Kentmere Bromide, Formulary Amidol, Adox ORT25) will have to go on the back burner. I'll slowly start accumulating the cheap stuff, though, and let everybody know how it goes. Who knows, I might stumble on just the right thing straight off the bat!

As usual, everything is appreciated, so keep giving me more and thanks for what you've already given!
-Patrick