Early box cameras that use 120 film

[numerus]

Hello,

do you know which early box cameras were the first to use 120 film? I like the old devices. I find the old Kodak Bulls Eye Model D cameras very interesting, but as far as I know they are not made for 120 film (and I'm not a fan of tinkering).

 

[Donald Qualls]

As I recall, 620 wasn't introduced until the late 1930s, after Kodak acquired Nagel, so anything made before that time frame with a 2 1/4 frame dimension ought to be able to use modern 120 film. There were three different films that width before WWII, differing in frame count and framing track location, but they were combined into the existing 120 between about 1936 and 1948.

 

[Don_ih]

From Wikipedia:

"120 is a film format for still photography introduced by Kodak for their Brownie No. 2 in 1901."

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'd note that the linked article shows the 1900 Brownie using 117 film, but (assuming spool compatibility) a 117 camera can use modern 120 film, getting 12 frame instead of the original 6 or 8 on a roll.

 

[henryvk]

I assume there are at least a couple of different iterations of the No. 2, and here's a 1924 "Model F" that definitely uses "Rollfilm", i.e. 120: http://www.lippisches-kameramuseum.de/Kodak/Kodak_Brownie_No_2_Model_F.htm For size comparison to the 116 Model C: https://www.ebay.at/itm/116330570156

If another decade or so later isn't "too new" for you, I've had some fun with the (1934-1948) Zeiss Tengor 54/2: https://kameramuseum.de/objekte/zeiss-ikon-box-tengor-54-2-2/

 

[Mr Flibble]

Cameras that take 105 format might be able to take 120 as well, like the Kodak No.1 Panoram does.

Most of the European manufacturers that produced box cameras made models that took 120 (Like Agfa B2 film).
There are a couple of 620 format ones from France and the UK, but they are relatively rare.

 

[numerus]

Do you know if there are any of the old boxes that have a better lens than a meniscus lens? I know the Goerz/Zeiss Tengor of course and also heard about the lens of a Certo Doppel Box, but I'm more into those old wooden boxes.

 

[Hunter_Compton]

I'd note that the linked article shows the 1900 Brownie using 117 film, but (assuming spool compatibility) a 117 camera can use modern 120 film, getting 12 frame instead of the original 6 or 8 on a roll.

117 film uses a spool with a smaller flange diameter than 120 film so 120 film won’t fit. Plastic 120 spools can have the flanges turned down and will work provided you also cut down the spools and backing paper to 6 exposures. This is how I do it for shooting my original 1900 (later named no.1) Kodak Brownie.

Of course just buying a No.2 Brownie, all of which take 120 film, is the easier option.

 

[retina_restoration]

The Zeiss Box Tengor was available in 120 format and is considered one of the very best of its type.

 

[Kino]

The Zeiss Box Tengor was available in 120 format and is considered one of the very best of its type.

This ^ would be my suggestion as well. I don't tend to like box cameras, but this one is very good.

 

[Arthurwg]

OK, but do any 120 box cameras shoot square?? I'd be fine with a meniscus lens.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Alternatively, there were dozens of models of simple box cameras, some from every big-brand camera maker and a bunch from names I've only ever seen on box cameras. Honestly, I'm not sure what the point is of something like a Box Tengor; for what they cost these days, I can get a folder with the same capability that will fit in a jacket pocket. If I want a box camera (and I occasionally do) my Ansco Shur-Shot Jr. does the job perfectly.

 

[Donald Qualls]

OK, but do any 120 box cameras shoot square?? I'd be fine with a meniscus lens.

Not many -- I don't think I've seen one in the cardboard category at all. Brownie Hawkeye Flash, some will take 120 supply spool but need 620 takeup, however they're made of Bakelite. The market for box cameras was economy, and part of the economy was contact prints from your processing; 2x3 were much more viewable than 2x2.

 

[MattKing]

One caution with a Brownie No. 2.
When EK was struggling with wrapper offset issues with 120 film, and taking steps to reduce the amount of ink used on the backing paper, they changed the number of differently spaced frame numbers printed on the backing paper.
At that time, the set of numbers that had previously lined up with the window on the Brownie was removed - thus making a No. 2 Brownie unusable with the currently manufactured Kodak films.
One of my favourite APUG threads was essentially a complaint abut planned obsolescence - how dare Kodak stop supporting their 100+ year old camera!
There were some subsequent changes before the backing paper replacement was finalized - I don't know whether the line of numbers that worked with the Brownie No. 2 was restored on Kodak films, or whether it is available on other brands.

 

[blee1996]

OK, but do any 120 box cameras shoot square?? I'd be fine with a meniscus lens.

Drill a hole in the middle for 6x6 frame number, and masking off 6x6 at the film gate. Done.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

The OP's blurb says 'Germany'; one of the earliest German 120 boxes would be a Goerz-branded Box Tengor. The exact spec of the B-T varies, but some have three aperture stops and three-zone focus.

My oldest box is an Ensign 'Duo-Ensign 2¼B' from about 1930. That has a meniscus achromat (a meniscus, but it's two elements glued together) three aperture stops, and a portrait-range supplementary lens on a slider. There was a model with a Rapid Rectilinear lens at extra cost; those models have RR in the name, but you don't see many of them. One feature of my camera is that it has Watson viewfinders; tiny ground-glass screens, instead of tiny condenser lenses ('Brilliant finders') familiar on a more modern box camera. They are a little harder to use in dim light.

You could search through some of these at Camera-wiki: your choice is obviously affected by what you can find to buy that's in good condition.

Category:6x9 box - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

A lot of those will be 620. Among the Kodak, I think a camera with 'No.2' in its name is probably for 120. There's a subcategory there for German (and one for Japanese; someone created a category for two cameras).


Was it the OP who wanted square format? There is a category for 6x6.

Category:6x6 box - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

 

[Romanko]

Box Ensign 2¼ B - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

 

[henryvk]

Alternatively, there were dozens of models of simple box cameras, some from every big-brand camera maker and a bunch from names I've only ever seen on box cameras. Honestly, I'm not sure what the point is of something like a Box Tengor; for what they cost these days, I can get a folder with the same capability that will fit in a jacket pocket. If I want a box camera (and I occasionally do) my Ansco Shur-Shot Jr. does the job perfectly.

There is not that much point in the Tengor other than what the experience of shooting the box camera itself offers. The quality of the images certainly isn't on par with even a cheap triplet.

The results can be interesting in their own way, though.

Here are some red rocks in Colorado, shot with a Tengor on Fomapan 100:

 

[JPD]

OK, but do any 120 box cameras shoot square?? I'd be fine with a meniscus lens.

The Altissa box is 6x6 and has a two element Periskop lens. They are from the 1950s, so not early box cameras.

There are Box Tengors that shoot 645 (with a 70 or 75mm lens, still an achromat).

 

[Dustin McAmera]

Speaking from a high-latitude (that is to say, often dark) country, I'm not sure the lens is what holds box cameras back. For me, f/11 and 1/30 second (or whatever 'I' is on the camera you have) isn't the best exposure solution a lot of the time.
This is my Duo-Ensign 2¼B's good work:


And this is what I can get when the light is 'interesting' later in the day:


That one's using a short 'B' exposure, with the camera held down on a silver bollard like the ones you can see.
This camera has a meniscus achromat. You can't damn them all; I suspect there are good ones and bad ones, like there are good and bad triplets.
I'd like to try a Rapid Rectilinear; it gives you f/8, for a start.

 

[Romanko]

If you plan on using a box camera for a project then it makes sense to use one with a simple lens to get the authentic look.

If you are going to collect them the image quality does not matter.

A box camera is a poor choice for general photography. A folder is more compact, easier to use and delivers excellent image quality.

 

[Don_ih]

Another issue with the gool ol' box camera, like all the Brownies, is that, after the many decades since they were made, the back of the box has usually bowed in a bit (a side-effect of fake leather on one side and nothing on the other) and almost certainly throws the plane of focus off.

 

[JPD]

If you plan on using a box camera for a project than it makes sense to use one with a simple lens to get the authentic look.

If you are going to collect them the image quality does not matter.

A box camera is a poor choice for general photography. A folder is more compact, easier to use and delivers excellent image quality.

If you don't want the good image quality produced by a triplet but a little better than a meniscus, then a box camera with an achromat or periskop lens is a good choice. The look will be authentic for those type of lenses. But not all lenses of the same type will give exactly the same look. I think that goes for meniscus lenses as well.

And you might like if it has aperture and/or focus settings, the time period it was made, maybe like the brand or how the camera looks.

 

[250swb]

OK, but do any 120 box cameras shoot square?? I'd be fine with a meniscus lens.

The elephant in the room isn't the 120 film, it is the size of the reel it's on. There was the original pre-WWI 120 reel, then the 620 metal reel, and only latterly the modern 120 plastic reel, and they are all a different size and the camera was designed to fit only that size. So the modern 120 reel does not fit into a 620 camera without either rewinding the film onto a 620 metal reel or thinning down the plastic end caps and reducing their diameter. This is what you have to do on the plethora of folding cameras from the '20s and '30s because they were designed to take 620 film (120 on a metal reel). The transition took place in the 1950's and cameras now began to take the modern version of 120 reels. So a box camera is likely to be much much older, unless it's a plastic 'toy' box camera, and will be designed to take the original 120 reel or most likely 620. You would also need to check if you need a metal reel to wind the film on to although in many cameras this side of the compartment is a looser fit and a modern reel will sometimes do.

 

[Don_ih]

I'm pretty sure all 120 spools - wood/metal, all metal, or plastic - will work in all 120 cameras. I compared some I have - they're all the same dimensions. The 620 spools, however, are slightly shorter than the 120 (around a mm) and the flange diameter is smaller on 620. The driving slot is smaller on 620, also.

The number spacing is slightly different on 620 paper than it is on 120 paper, also, to accommodate for the thinner core. Not that it matters.