E6 Reversal working-solution

[MKHardy]

Hi,

Please can I ask for your opinion on my reversal working-solution.

Its been turning a straw colour ever since I started using it, however over the past week its also gone very slightly cloudy. I read somewhere that stock reversal can sometimes go cloudy without issue? Does it need to be replaced?

Many thanks for looking,
Matthew

 

[koraks]

It would help to know what kind of chemistry this is.
In general I'd expect a working stock reversal bath based on tin chloride to be of suspect usability if it turns cloudy. The amber color is supposedly in part due to carry-over of the first developer, which may result in stability problems with the reversal bath. Do you use an adequate wash between first development and the subsequent reversal step?

 

[MKHardy]

It would help to know what kind of chemistry this is.
In general I'd expect a working stock reversal bath based on tin chloride to be of suspect usability if it turns cloudy. The amber color is supposedly in part due to carry-over of the first developer, which may result in stability problems with the reversal bath. Do you use an adequate wash between first development and the subsequent reversal step?

Hi,

This reversal working-solution is from the Bellini 6-bath kit.

I follow the instructions which state a 2-minute wash at 38c after the first developer.

 

[John Salim]

Pink and cloudy is absolutely fine, but don't use it to exhaustion.
This is more noticeable processing lots of Ektachrome, and especially Ektachrome motion picture film.

John S

 

[MKHardy]

Pink and cloudy is absolutely fine, but don't use it to exhaustion.
This is more noticeable processing lots of Ektachrome, and especially Ektachrome motion picture film.

John S

I have developed about 6 sheets of Ektachrome e100 4x5 in it.

Is the amber colour OK for reversal working-solution?

 

[Samu]

It would help to know what kind of chemistry this is.
In general I'd expect a working stock reversal bath based on tin chloride to be of suspect usability if it turns cloudy. The amber color is supposedly in part due to carry-over of the first developer, which may result in stability problems with the reversal bath. Do you use an adequate wash between first development and the subsequent reversal step?

Stannous chloride will oxidize almost immediately (in hours) in alkaline solution. Bevause of this, it means the 2 minute wash is 2 minute wash with running water. Doing as many people do in black and white, and use water as stop bath, is not enough in E6- Oxidation will normally cause white or off-white precipitation in the reversal bath, and it is a sign it will not work properly any more. Turning amber would mean something like a huge carryover of developer. which would mean in practice that 1st wash was completely omitted.

I have seen many posts by people complaining about their 6 bath E6 having problems with reversal. I have never seen these kinds of problems with my own eyes. The problems are of the kind that should simply not happen, if the basics of the process are adhered to. There must be something people are doing very wrong, but I can´t see the pattern. The carryover of FD into REV should be minimal after washing for two minutes with Jobo Cascade, or doing an "Ilford wash", or Kodak style fill-and dump for full 2 minutes.

 

[Samu]

Ektachrome movie stock will dye everything pink, including reversal. But I have never seen this king of color with any films.. 6 sheets of 4x5 equals to about 1.5 films 135-36 or 120 by area, so the kit cannot be exhausted, if everything is done properly. But generally, discoloring of chemistry is normal in E6, and has no effect on the solutions in general. This is just a color I have never seen in the reversal bath. Did the sheets you processed come out normally?

 

[koraks]

Turning amber would mean something like a huge carryover of developer. which would mean in practice that 1st wash was completely omitted.

Not necessarily; even a 2 minute water wash without any change of water can still induce a carryover of very dilute developer that will over time turn the following bath yellow - and raise its pH. Like you, this makes me worried about the stannous chloride that's in solution and that's notoriously unreliable to keep in solution.

Ektachrome movie stock will dye everything pink, including reversal. But I have never seen this king of color with any films..

Most modern color negative films release magenta dyes during processing and final wash. This includes modern Portra, Ektar, Vision3 and also (genuine Fuji) Superia. One of the exceptions is Harman Phoenix, and I think (IIRC) Orwo NC/Shanghai 400 also releases golden/straw colored dyes instead of magenta ones. I don't know about E6.

 

[Samu]

Not necessarily; even a 2 minute water wash without any change of water can still induce a carryover of very dilute developer that will over time turn the following bath yellow - and raise its pH. Like you, this makes me worried about the stannous chloride that's in solution and that's notoriously unreliable to keep in solution.

I still doubt the carryover from just 6 sheets of 4x5 would be enough to change any of the properties of the reversal bath. Dyes in the film are much more likely. In that case, they should have no effect on the process.

Most modern color negative films release magenta dyes during processing and final wash. This includes modern Portra, Ektar, Vision3 and also (genuine Fuji) Superia. One of the exceptions is Harman Phoenix, and I think (IIRC) Orwo NC/Shanghai 400 also releases golden/straw colored dyes instead of magenta ones. I don't know about E6.

Yes, almost do release magenta dyes. But movie Ektachrome will dye the 1st developer and even reversal about the same color, if you turn your anlarger to maximum magenta, and turn the light on on a white pape. This discoloration will disappear in hours in the developer, but is permanent in the reversal bath. This is a characteristic of this stock only, but has no effact on the process, ecvept that it will also dye all the equipment in the long run bright pink. It is mentioned in the Kodak documentation concerning this particular film. It is the same dyes as in other color films, but this is at very different level.

 

[Rudeofus]

I have seen reversal recipes, which use traces of p-Aminophenol as oxygen scavengers. If those turn brown, then it's not a good sign for that reversal bath.

Please watch out with reversal bathes: they die all of a sudden if they die, sort of like XTol. You need minuscule amounts of Stannous Chloride to reexpose film, much much less than what you have in your working solution. You will not notice the first 99% of that Stannous Chloride gone, until all of a sudden the remaining 1% is also gone.

If you are unsure about your reversal bath, so a simple test: put an unexposed clip of B&W film into a film tank, apply the reversal bath for one minute, then develop in whatever single shot developer you can find. If the film clip turns completely black, then the reversal bath is likely good. Don't try to reuse that developer, since it's now contaminated with Stannous Chloride and will likely develop any silver it can find, exposed or not.

 

[lamerko]

I have seen reversal recipes, which use traces of p-Aminophenol as oxygen scavengers. If those turn brown, then it's not a good sign for that reversal bath.

I've always wondered what the role of aminophenol is in the reversal bath. As far as I remember, it was in very small amounts - is it enough as a competitor?

 

[mshchem]

You can use a reverse exposure after washing instead of the reversal bath. The way it was in the good old days. In olden times you'd use a photoflood.

 

[Rudeofus]

I've always wondered what the role of aminophenol is in the reversal bath. As far as I remember, it was in very small amounts - is it enough as a competitor?

My impression is, that it's not a competitor, but an initial oxygen scavenger, to get the oxygen out of the water before the Stannous Chloride gets in. From what I know p-Aminophenol should be a weaker reducer than Stannous Chloride.