E6 reversal issue

[MingMingPhoto]

hi guys! I really messed up on developing e6 the other day.

I got new chemicals. I used to use the tetenal e6 kits, but now I'm using the belini 6 step.

I developed 9 rolls with no issue. prob a week or two gap between the first set to the second. everything came out fine. but when I did the last three (the one liter kit claims a 12 roll capacity) they seemed to have had an issue during the reversal process.

what I tried:

1) re fix
2) re pre bleach, wash , re bleach, wash re fix
3) re do the whole process with 100% fresh chemicals. and the results remained the same.

the negatives have reddish opaque regions that to me seemed like retained silver at first on all the spots that turn up odd in the image.

anyone have an idea of waht I did wrong, and what I can do to prevent this in the future. perhaps also how I can rectify this is it is at all possible.

 

[mshchem]

My first thought (always) is 1st developer is shot. Secondly did you run 2 min wash between 1st developer and reversal bath?

 

[MingMingPhoto]

My first thought (always) is 1st developer is shot. Secondly did you run 2 min wash between 1st developer and reversal bath?

ahh
ok and is there a way for me to determine if the 1st dev is shot from visual or scent? or must I do a control strip/process something first?

I have a filmomat for the e6 so I have it set to take in, rotate, and push out water a few times between most all the steps as according to the directions. do you have advice on a better way to set that up?

 

[lamerko]

Perhaps the reversal chemistry (stannic chloride) is dead….

 

[mshchem]

1st developer capacity needs to be reviewed. 12 rolls per liter without replenishment is nuts.

 

[Samu]

To my eyes, this looks very much like very expired slide film. Is this correct?
If not, I would suspect the first developer is almost totally expired. I don't think it is an issue with reversal.
The Bellini kit is not really capable of processing 12 rolls per liter. They have even changed this in their webpage to 9 rolls per kit. I would say 8 is the maximum, and only when solutions are used three times max. Even the third ones will have a bit darkish dMin. Use one shot in rotary, or twice with Jbob 1500 series tanks having smaller filling requirements that will allow this.

Perhaps the reversal chemistry (stannic chloride) is dead….

Stannous, not stannic chloride. SnCl2, not SnCl4.

 

[Samu]

1st developer capacity needs to be reviewed. 12 rolls per liter without replenishment is nuts.

They did. The newest version of their fact sheet claims it has only the capacity of 9 rolls. My oen estimate is 8, if used one shot in Jobo in rotary processing, or max twice in Jobo 1500 series tanks (ą liter for 4 rolls, or in 500 ml quantities for 2 rolls at a time. Claim for 12 rolls is more likely to come from the marketing departement. And it should be clearly stated it does not mean you can use a liter of solution 12 times for developing a single film at a time. Not even 8 rolls. Also, if developing by hand using Kodsk style agitation scheme, as Bellini suggests, about 30 seconds should be added to the times published by Bellini.

 

[lamerko]

Stannous, not stannic chloride. SnCl2, not SnCl4.

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Otherwise, the result is kind of weird. In places it is reversed, in places it is negative. And there is an effect similar to solarization. so I assumed it could be from the reverse process...

 

[MingMingPhoto]

thank you everyone <3

1st developer capacity needs to be reviewed. 12 rolls per liter without replenishment is nuts.

yeah they say 1-6 then extend dev time by 30s for 7-12

 

[halfaman]

It seems that deep shadows have not developed in CD because its activity is too low due to exhasution or contamination. Bleach or fix again would make no difference.

 

[czygeorge]

1.Yes rev should never get reused,may caused by this reason.I always think bellini is very unresponsible to suggest their customer to reuse every chem incl. rev
2.shouldn't get this result by just reuse developer,unless chem get polluted

 

[ChrisGalway]

Ever since I ran out of Tetenal E6 kits, I've used the 1 litre Bellini E6 kit, making up 500ml at a time and using a single reel Paterson tank for 120 film (1 film per reel only). I've used a total of 4 kits in all over the past 18 months.

I usually process 4 films per 500ml (sometimes 3, very occasionally 5) one by one over 2-3 days. I typically use the remainder of the kit a few days later, processing another 4 films sequentially. Perhaps I'm not super-critical, but I have never noticed any degradation in the final result from the first to the last film in a batch. Of course I increase the first development time for each film processed (and the colour development time but I don't think that's as critical).

I should add that I'm always using in-date film (Provia 100f) and use freshly made up chemicals, typically all 8 120 films are processed in under a week (one by one, I like slow photography!)

I really liked the Tetenal 4 bath E6 kit, but I've also been very pleased with the 7 bath Bellini kit. I am going to try the "new" Adox 4 bath E6 kit after I've used my last Bellini kit in 2-3 weeks time. We are spoilt for choice now!

 

[ChrisGalway]

By the way, here is how to interpret the 5-digit code on the box of the Bellini E6 kit. The date of manufacture/packing (I do not know which) is stated as, for example, 24066, meaning the 66th day of 2024 ... this is on my latest box. Bellini told me the kits are good for 2 years after this date if stored properly. They are very helpful and responsive to technical inquiries.

 

[Samu]

Ever since I ran out of Tetenal E6 kits, I've used the 1 litre Bellini E6 kit, making up 500ml at a time and using a single reel Paterson tank for 120 film (1 film per reel only). I've used a total of 4 kits in all over the past 18 months.

I usually process 4 films per 500ml (sometimes 3, very occasionally 5) one by one over 2-3 days. I typically use the remainder of the kit a few days later, processing another 4 films sequentially. Perhaps I'm not super-critical, but I have never noticed any degradation in the final result from the first to the last film in a batch. Of course I increase the first development time for each film processed (and the colour development time but I don't think that's as critical).

I should add that I'm always using in-date film (Provia 100f) and use freshly made up chemicals, typically all 8 120 films are processed in under a week (one by one, I like slow photography!)

I really liked the Tetenal 4 bath E6 kit, but I've also been very pleased with the 7 bath Bellini kit. I am going to try the "new" Adox 4 bath E6 kit after I've used my last Bellini kit in 2-3 weeks time. We are spoilt for choice now!

I use slide film in 135 format. but the area of one 135-36 film is practically identical to the area of an 120 film.
This kit can process about 8 rolls up to acceptable standards. 12 rolls is too much. For processing 8 rolls, it means either one shot use in rotary processing, or using the solution twice in Jobo 1500 series tanks inverting manually. For Jobo tanks, you can load easily two 120 films in one reel, as they have the separator clips. These tanks can process 4 films with one liter, or two films with 500 ml. You can use the solutions for 3 or even more times, but it shows in the results. Also, E6 chemistry does not keep for half a year. It is not one week either, but the solutions will go faster than C-41 chemistry does. With Paterson and similar tanks, you will need more solution to fill the tank properly.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I use slide film in 135 format. but the area of one 135-36 film is practically identical to the area of an 120 film.
This kit can process about 8 rolls up to acceptable standards. 12 rolls is too much. For processing 8 rolls, it means either one shot use in rotary processing, or using the solution twice in Jobo 1500 series tanks inverting manually. For Jobo tanks, you can load easily two 120 films in one reel, as they have the separator clips. These tanks can process 4 films with one liter, or two films with 500 ml. You can use the solutions for 3 or even more times, but it shows in the results. Also, E6 chemistry does not keep for half a year. It is not one week either, but the solutions will go faster than C-41 chemistry does. With Paterson and similar tanks, you will need more solution to fill the tank properly.

Thanks for this very helpful information.

I don't understand why re-using the kit chemicals several times is any less satisfactory than processing same amount of film, but in batches. For example, surely processing 4 (E6) 120 films, one by one in 500ml of solution over a couple of days is barely different from processing them in two batches, with two 120 films loaded in the spiral each time and the same 500ml of solution? In both cases, it's 4 120 films processed in 500ml, less than the manufacturers rating of 6 films per 500ml for both Bellini and Adox/Tetenal kits. The only difference I can see is that if you process the four films sequentially over a couple of days, more oxygen will be absorbed by the solutions due to the longer overall time (a couple of days instead of a few hours) and increased amount of agitation (4 processing cycles, not 2). Do you think this is enough to make a difference? Or are there some other factors at play?

I wish I had a darkroom equipped with a sensitometer and densitometer so I could investigate these solution lifetime issues scientifically/objectively (as I used to 50+ years ago in my undergraduate course, I must have exposed/measured hundreds, possibly thousands, of step wedges then)! I would hope that the manufacturers of the kits have done this when arriving at their claimed (optimistic?) capacity ratings of 12 films per litre of working solution.

Chris

 

[koraks]

For example, surely processing 4 (E6) 120 films, one by one in 500ml of solution over a couple of days is barely different from processing them in two batches, with two 120 films loaded in the spiral each time and the same 500ml of solution?

I doubt it's so similar. The difference is due to halide buildup in the first developer. If you process everything all at once, all the film will 'see' the same fresh developer at the start, which then gets progressively 'contaminated' with development byproducts during the development session. By contrast, if you process rolls one by one, each roll is processed in essentially a different developer (one with progressively increasing amounts of bromide, iodide and chloride). The latter approach will be less consistent than the former.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I doubt it's so similar. The difference is due to halide buildup in the first developer. If you process everything all at once, all the film will 'see' the same fresh developer at the start, which then gets progressively 'contaminated' with development byproducts during the development session. By contrast, if you process rolls one by one, each roll is processed in essentially a different developer (one with progressively increasing amounts of bromide, iodide and chloride). The latter approach will be less consistent than the former.

Good point. I don't have the equipment to process several films at once, but perhaps one day ...

In the meantime, having processed to my satisfaction around 135 films in E6 kits since Feb 2020, I'll keep the sequential method. As I said before, I do not see any loss in colour fidelity or dynamic range for 4 films per 500ml, but then I don't have access to proper objective measurement equipment either.

 

[koraks]

The question is at what point the process drift becomes visible. It'll be measurable long before it becomes very apparent, especially in typical photography that features a variety of scenes, lighting conditions, subject matter and perhaps also film types. I'm not surprised that the sequential process works well for you and I'd see no reason to change what you're doing. At the same time, I can see the sense in others' concerns. How justified those concerns are, is a different matter.