E6 raw chemicals (C6 H5 NO4)

trendland · Mar 22, 2017

Hallo everybody,

i have just done some investgations in price lists of supliers.

Here on APUG you can find several E6 homebrew formulas posted in the past.

There are a lot of options for DIY experiments with E6 - so long as you can buy the chemical components you will need.

Especially some not substitutable raw chemicals have done several waves of price increases - or the worst case : you can buy them nowhere.

Now my question : Have some of you an idea how to substude citrazinic acid cas: 99-11-6 ?

My idea is to avoid that chemical.

Never know if that will work but may by there is a little chance by reformulate the DIY formula?

At least - what could be a working substitutable chemical for C6 H5 NO 4 ?

Any ideas ?

with regards to you

trendland · Mar 22, 2017

Sorry i forgot the formula witch depends to my tread.

And for all who might be interested in that a little special theme.

It was posted original by stefan4u
Okt.24 2007 here on Apug.
Reciepe II
Color Developer (for older Agfas like CT100) perhaps also for very old CT18 ?

Aqua denim .........750 ml.
Calgon 2.0 g
trisodium phosphate cristals 36.0 g
Sodium hydroxyde 10%solution 49 ml
Sodium sulphite sicc. 5.5 g
Sodium bromide 0.55g
Potassium iodid 0,1%solution 36ml
Sodium thyocyanate 1.0g

and now : citrazinic acid !!!! 0.6g

CD3 10.5g
Water to 1000ml

ph should be properly in
the near to 12.5

Notice : Stefan4u`s formulation
is inspired by (watkins faktor) on opie.net. Original by author Derrek Watson

In my oppinion this formula (stefan4u)
is the little bit one.

Perhaps the best at once.

And not only for older Agfas

with regards to you

trendland · Mar 22, 2017

trendland said:
Sorry i forgot the formula witch depends to my tread.

And for all who might be interested in that a little special theme.

It was posted original by stefan4u
Okt.24 2007 here on Apug.
Reciepe II
Color Developer (for older Agfas like CT100) perhaps also for very old CT18 ?

Aqua denim .........750 ml.
Calgon 2.0 g
trisodium phosphate cristals 36.0 g
Sodium hydroxyde 10%solution 49 ml
Sodium sulphite sicc. 5.5 g
Sodium bromide 0.55g
Potassium iodid 0,1%solution 36ml
Sodium thyocyanate 1.0g

and now : citrazinic acid !!!! 0.6g

CD3 10.5g
Water to 1000ml

ph should be properly in
the near to 12.5

Notice : Stefan4u`s formulation
is inspired by (watkins faktor) on opie.net. Original by author Derrek Watson

In my oppinion this formula (stefan4u)
is the little bit better one.

Perhaps the best at once.

And not only for older Agfas

with regards to you

dE fENDER · Mar 22, 2017

Citrazinic acid is important component of E-6 and cannot be replaced or excluded from color developer, but can be easily synthesized from diammonium citrate (cas 3012-65-5 ) by heating at 130 C for 3.5 hours. You may try to translate this book (http://tuskarora.ru/Downloads/E6_Shadrin-1992.pdf) , if you want to know more of its role and different synthesis routes and verification, or search english e-6 patents/chemical journals/databases.

There are some other E-6 recipes without citrazinic acid (and with CD-1 instead of CD-3), but they will work only on some simple films (such as Velvia 50) and will not work with any other Fuji.

dE fENDER · Mar 22, 2017

Synthesis from citric acid and urea:

Photo Engineer · Mar 22, 2017

The narration has a very strange cadence to it. I assume from a speech synthesizer.

To answer the question though, both "H" acid and "J" acid have been used in E1 and E2. I presume they could be made to work here.

PE

trendland · Mar 23, 2017

Well........that looks not so much like a
very easily synthesis

But never mind in details as the englishman says ! :-(

What is your supposion tue to the determination of purity ?

When the synthesis of citrazinic acid as
shown in the video would work fine ?

I would be afraid to have truble with an
analysis method a little bit more complicate than the synthesis ?

Or i have to analyse my "homebrew
C6 H5 NO4 " due to purity in therms
of color saturation, color contrast
on my lovely slides

are there indeed no outher ways to
work without citrazinic acid?

I am not realy shure, but i thing about
in the past that Kodak itself changes
citrazinic acid in commercial chemisty?

They might use an other modern chemical instead of ??

I could be completely wrong but i thing
I have read about here in APUG.

Otherwise there are many matching points for a couple of further investgations.

with regards to you

Rudeofus · Mar 23, 2017

That synthesis gives you 16% yield, so "simple synthesis" would not be the term I would choose for it. Also, it requires hours of heating and gives off Ammonia fumes (and $DEITY knows what else), which is not something I would do outside a dedicated lab. Add to that the cost of these sinter filters plus vacuum pumps, and you could order a lifetime supply of Citrazinic Acid just for the upfront cost.

Fototechnik Suvatlar offers Citrazinic Acid, and AFAIK they ship world wide.

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2017

Please note my post above regarding potential substitutes.

PE

Anon Ymous · Mar 23, 2017

Rudeofus said:
Add to that the cost of these sinter filters plus vacuum pumps, and you could order a lifetime supply of Citrazinic Acid just for the upfront cost...

Especially considering the very low quantity of citrazinic acid needed per litre of E6 CD (~0,5g). 25g should last a long time.

dE fENDER · Mar 24, 2017

trendland said:
Well........that looks not so much like a
very easily synthesis

What is your supposion tue to the determination of purity ?

When the synthesis of citrazinic acid as
shown in the video would work fine ?

I would be afraid to have truble with an
analysis method a little bit more complicate than the synthesis ?

Or i have to analyse my "homebrew
C6 H5 NO4 " due to purity in therms
of color saturation, color contrast
on my lovely slides

are there indeed no outher ways to
work without citrazinic acid?

I am not realy shure, but i thing about
in the past that Kodak itself changes
citrazinic acid in commercial chemisty?

They might use an other modern chemical instead of ??

I could be completely wrong but i thing
I have read about here in APUG.

The synthesis on video is different than one from the diammonium citrate, but in any case it will take several hours of work. I didn't try synthesis from citric acid, but I did one from the diammonium citrate. It's works and the purity is enough for E-6 development (for visual conformance, I have no sensitometer), but if you have possibility to buy ready chem - in any case it will be easier, safer and cheaper than trying to do custom synthesis.

I can retell some part of the book in my link - for some reasons purple coupler in slide film are added with large excess. If you will process film without CA, then image will be purple with some pink fog in purple-unexposed areas. CA forms complex with color developer, which is inactive for purple coupler, but acts as usual color developer with other couplers. Proportion of CA and CD are matched in such way that CD will be in small excess for normal purple development.

If you excluded CA from developer, you have to do chemical color correction in other way and I do not know how you can achieve normal image quality without CA. Of course, you can try to search different E-6 MSDS and find other chemicals, which can replace CA.

As I said before, there are some amateur recipes without CA, but they will work only one type of film:
Agfa Precisa - http://club.foto.ru/forum/21/641915,143#p11352628
Velvia 50 - http://club.foto.ru/forum/view_post.php?p_id=10801149

trendland · Mar 24, 2017

Thank you for your replies, i will check this.

By the time, the information you have
given to me in the PDF "E6 Shadrin 1992" seems to be very interesting,
i am still working on the translation.

Thank you also for that - lots of importent facts due to color corections.

with regards

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2017

CA is a competing coupler which forms a greenish dye with oxidized color developer. It is present to prevent interlayer contamination of dyes by wandering oxidized developer and it also improves grain and sharpness. In addition, it normalizes Dmax to get black blacks.

PE

trendland · Mar 24, 2017

Thats really new for me, the fact that citrazinic acid additional manage Dmax.

But it makes sense - thinking of color
saturation and color contrast.

Thank you for this further info PE.

You mentioned H acid and J acid
as chemical compounds in the CD's
of E1 and E2 if i have understood that correctly.
I'm not really familiar with the older ones of Kodak processes. But i have some tables
(E1 - E4) but without formulas.

So what is meant with H acid and J acid
(they do the job witch CA is responcible for in E6 - in E1 and E2 that is clear to me) But what are the full names of these
2 chemicals PE ?

with regards to you

Photo Engineer · Mar 24, 2017

Google the names H acid and J acid and you will get chemical names. They are soluble couplers just like CZA. They serve the same purpose but are not quite as good IIRC. Kodak stopped using them years ago. But, if you can get them, you might be able to use them, especially if CZA is hard to get.

PE

trendland · Mar 24, 2017

Oh thanks - that is great.
I have thought that H and J both where intern abrivations.

with regards to you

trendland · Mar 24, 2017

...... by the way CZA may be hard to get
in some regions.

But that isn't the question.

There is often a way to get some rare
chemicals wich are nescessary to film
development.

But that amounds of CZA you can get
by chemical suppliers are chemicals
produced in the past (couple of years) -
because that chemical is out of produktion.

with regards to you

E6 raw chemicals (C6 H5 NO4)

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